Camoflage clothing with cub uniforms. What do you think?

[Beavah]

Yah, fellow Beav, welcome to da Scouter.Com forums, eh? I reckon if yeh look back earlier in the thread, one of the first responses linked to Mike Walton's page, eh? No need to keep copyin' it for us.

 

LTC Walton is a good fellow and a bit of a uniform historian, but he does not represent the BSA. His personal opinions are his own, and are worth as much or as little as all of da personal opinions that are bein' shared on the topic.

 

Rather than quotin' Mike, why don't yeh share from your own experience? What does your unit do?

 

Beavah

 

[FScouter]

"Can anyone show me with a link or page number in the Uniform Guide that specifically says NO CAMO."

 

It's on the same page that says the wearing of pink pedal pushers is forbidden. That is not to say that camo or PPP is "allowed". What is allowed is the uniform as described in various publications, which also say that UNITS may not re-define the uniform.

 

Sure, uniform pants are expensive and its understood that some parents will seek "permission" to substitute something else. The response from the unit could be to advise that a uniform is not required, or explain the various methods to obtain all the uniform components.

 

What is not appropriate is to grant "permission" to wear camo, or PPP, or whatever substitute. If a boy and his family decides to wear camo, or walmart pants, or whatever, that should be an individual choice, not one supported by the unit.

[Trevorum]

Reminds me of the time our SPL showed up for the CoH wearing pink trousers. (Well, they might have been faded red.) He told me he couldn't find his uniform trousers and didn't want to be late. So he went on stage in pink trousers. It was teaching moment to be sure, but did it have to be so high profile?

[asm 411]

The uniform is expensive?

 

Generally when I hear this I look at the Scout. He is typically wearing shoes and hooded sweat shirt cost more than the items the parent is complaining about.

 

My only recourse used to explain that the uniform is part of the game of Scouting just like a the uniforms used for Football and Baseball. I had a hard time with this when the uniform, especially the pants, was not really functional for what we do. That is spend time in the outdoors.

 

Now with new zip off pants with real pockets and wicking material shirts that can be worn in all camping situations it is a lot easier to convince parents that it is not really that expensive.

 

I wear my field uniform to all scouting related activities meetings, round table, camping including summer camp... without any problems. So I explain to the parents that the shirts are typically good for several years before the scouts grow out of them. The pants are more problematic but we are already building up a troop closet in which the pants can be exchanged. Also now that they took the zippers out of the bottom of the pants legs they can be adjusted as the boy grows.

 

We now have boys that wear their uniform pants for the entire weekend when we camp. The shirts not so much but some do. Myself and our Scoutmaster wear full uniform the whole weekend including neckerchiefs.

 

Yes the initial investment may seem like a lot but compared to the cost of the "in style" clothes the boys wear which changes much more frequently our uniforms never go out of style and so are actually a bargain.

 

 

[Bob White]

SctDad

You have already been shown where the BSA says not to wear non-uniform apparel with the Scout uniforms, but you say you will not support that unless it specifically says camo? That's inane.

[Beavah]

Yah, sounds like a whole bunch of precision scouters would rather have no kids in uniform at all rather than have all the kids in partial uniforms. Get a grip.

 

Y'all are mixing up two very different things. One thing is the BSA's corporate need to define the uniform as its brand, from a trademark/marketing point of view. Honestly, folks, that concern doesn't really apply to unit meetings and activities of regular units under most circumstances.

 

Second thing is how in a particular unit to use the Uniform Method well. That's where scouters look at their families and circumstances and choose what battles to fight and make accommodations so that they can have a good program which works for kids, even if they don't have a precision program which pleases da precision scouters of the world (who usually aren't runnin' units anymore themselves).

 

Know that da BSA would love yeh to buy the whole ensemble. Know that the BSA will be upset with yeh if you show up on CNN with everybody wearin' scout shirts, camo pants, green berets, packin' paintball guns, and claimin' that you're a real, fully uniformed Boy Scouts of America troop.

 

But also know that da BSA will be happy to sell yeh just a shirt, and will be proud to claim yours as a Quality Unit even if the lads are in blue jeans or dad's camo hunting jacket at the council camporee.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Bob White]

I swear if tap dancing was a part or Dancing with the Stars I would think you were auditioning for the show.

 

What relationship does a parent's ability to buy scout uniform pants have to a scout leader's responsibility to represent the BSA program correctly?

 

Who are you to decide what a family could choose to spend their money on. And why, if you knew a unit had such a unit wide problem, are you you not working as an advocate to help them find official uniform parts for less, rather than advocate that they ignore the uniform rules?

 

Do you honestly believe that every scout who wears camo or jeans with their uniform does so because they cannot afford the Scout pants?

 

What choices a parent makes is up to them, but as a leader in scouting you have a responsibility to represent the program correctly.

 

You continue to confuse this issue by mixing what the scout wears with the leaders responsibility to represent what correct uniforming is. They are two different issues. If you say that the correct uniform includes the official pants then you are not responsibible for what the parent or scout chooses to do, But to tell a unit or an individual that wearing camo, jeans, or other non-uniform piece is Okay is irresponsible and untrue.

 

Parents can make theior own choices, but scout leaders should know and represent the scouting program, its methods, and its rules.

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Beavah]

No tapdancin' there, BobWhite. Just tryin' not to be a turkey, especially on Thanksgivin'.

 

It's not the job of unit volunteers to "represent the BSA program" either correctly or incorrectly. In fact, unit volunteers aren't permitted to represent the BSA program at all under da Rules and Regulations. When the BSA wants to be represented, it selects its own representatives.

 

What unit leaders do is represent their own program. And I expect almost all unit leaders do a fine job of that, and do it honestly. Da precision scouters among us might not like or agree with some unit programs that don't meet their goals of bein' precise. Nobody else, includin' the BSA, really cares. Often as not, the need to look down at fellow volunteers says more about the person doin' the looking down than it does about how good a job the unit is doing working with kids.

 

On this Thanksgiving Day, I'm thankful that most such folks don't serve in direct contact positions with youth.

 

Actually, I'm really grateful for all of the wonderful volunteers out there, in khaki, green, blue, jeans, camo, nylon and wool who care enough about kids to be a part of their lives on a regular basis. A Scout Salute to you all! Boys and girls learn character from your kindness and generosity, not from your adherence to a uniform guide. Thanks for continuin' to be there for America's future generations.

 

Beavah

 

[FScouter]

"Actually, I'm really grateful for all of the wonderful volunteers out there.."

 

Does that include "da precision Scouters"? Let's not look down at our fellow volunteers.

[Bob White]

That is so wrong on so many levels beavah that one barely knows where to begin.

 

Are you saying that a unit leader has no obligation to use the Methods of Scouting? Are you saying that the leaders are taught correct uniforming in their basic training just to kill 15 minutes? Does any resource anywhere in the BSA say that the Cub and Boy Scout uniform is not the entire uniform?

 

But more importantly do you say that as a commissioner have no responsibility to represent the the programs, policies, and procedures of the BSA? If thats what you think then you need to revisit your basic commisoner training.

 

I don't make these things up in my sleep Beav, this stuff has been around a long time and it's in all the training and several easily found resources.

 

All that is asked is for the leaders to teach the BSA program information, it's the choice of the parents and scouts to do the right thing or not, but when even commissioners like you don't support the right information its no wonder that more people are so badly misinformed as to think they can alter the uniform as they please.

 

You say that the correct uniform is not an important thing. Well if you cannot be truted in doing small things right then who should trust you to do the important things right?

 

Ethical decision making starts with the volunteers. If you aren't willing to follow the program and give people the correct information then there is no way that anyone in the units you serve to know the actual program.

 

Let's hope that there are more Amethysts in the program and that they have long healthy tenure in Scouting.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Eagle92]

Change of subject here. Since I consider the wearing of cammies and the use of surplus equipment, i.e. canteens, backpacks, sleeping bags, etc to be completely separate issues, I did a spin off thread called "WHAT WOULD YOU DO?" in the Camping and High Adventure Section about a possibility to help some SCOUTREACH units get camping equipment. Please read and and post there.

 

Happy Thanksgiving Y'all.(This message has been edited by eagle92)

[SctDad]

I guess we should all be blessed to live in an area like BW. Where the funding of scouts is not an issue, therefore everyone can afford to go out and get enough uniform pants and civilian equipment to supply all scouts. I hope our areas can become this wealthy soon.

 

Until then I guess we are just a bunch of non-proper leaders who make up our own rules as we go along.

[SSScout]

The teaching of ideals is never the same as the succeeding in meeting them. We can teach and encourage. We can reward and punish (directly or subtly) as the ideal is approached or forgotten. We can "example" or we can say "that's good enough".

I would hope that we can agree that the ideal is a fully, properly uniformed Scout, proud of his appearance and his Scout heritage.

And I would hope we can agree that the forgiveness of some problems is appropriate. I have a Scout in our Troop who has parents that are intent on letting him make his own way as much as possible. He has ADDH issues. He can sew, (wish I could say the same about Scout son) but where the patches end up are often a little off course. Blue jeans often appear in the CoH, and neckers get misplaced. But the Troop camps, hikes and goes to a climbing wall center.

The ideal is there. The boys and parents know it. The misaligned patches get corrected (off to the side, privately), new neckers are procured. Clean jeans are better than some other trousers.

 

[fgoodwin]

This matter was addressed in a recent issue of Scouting Magazine:

 

No 'camouflage' uniforms

 

http://www.scoutingmagazine.org/issues/0510/d-lett.html

 

My troop participated in a joint troop service project last spring, and...another troop [had] its members wearing full camouflage clothing, with the striking appearance of being members of the U.S. Army rather than Boy Scouts.

 

Our congressional charter prohibits Scouts appearing as a paramilitary unit [which is why we have] the restriction against wearing any form of camouflage "clothing."

 

Daniel Ketcham

Scoutmaster, Troop 855

Executive Board Member, Golden Empire Council

Cedar Ridge, Calif.

 

According to the Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America (BSA No. 57-492), under "Insignia, Uniforms, and Badges," Clause 4(b) states: "Imitation of United States Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps uniforms is prohibited, in accordance with the provisions of the organization's Charter."

[fgoodwin]

SctDad, FScouter got it right: the official literature tells what we CAN do, not what we CANNOT do (big difference).

 

There are an infinite number of ways to do things wrong -- it would be impossible to list them all. If that's how we read the policies, then anyone could claim a missing prohibition implies that behavior is allowed.

 

Same thing with the lack of protest by volunteers or pros when you wore cammo. Just because no one objected doesn't make it right. Maybe they were just being "courteous, kind, cheerful" etc.

 

Had someone objected, would you have dismissed them as the "uniform police" and ignored them anyway? Would you have asked them: "show me where it says I can't do this?"

 

Others have given the correct policies. Those who choose to ignore the policies can and will spin the circumstances to suit their pre-determined outcome.