Camoflage clothing with cub uniforms. What do you think?

[John-in-KC]

Amethyst,

 

Welcome to the Forums.

 

Picking battles wisely is always good advice. Credibility can go to zero, fast, if you're viewed as a dilettante.

 

I like, really like, the idea about asking your CC/CM to have a uniform inspection, with the COR and the UC being the inspectors. I also like the idea about rewards for correct uniforming (those Halloween Hershey bars sure seem popular on cold winter days).

 

I also like Kathy's idea about Wal-Mart blue chino type pants, or blue jeans, especially for Cubbing. Kids 7-10 will outgrow a couple sizes before they wear out stuff; economy does matter ... and all the more so in the current times.

[SctDad]

Careful John, you might be seen as advocating improper uniforming by telling parents that wearing Walmart Blue pants is acceptable.

 

I really don't care.

 

BW, as for your mention of the WIDE variety of inexpensive gear out there that is not Camo. Yes I agree, if you have the money, and you find something that you like, go for it. But there is NOTHING cheaper than FREE> That is what ALL of my military gear cost me. Rucksack, sleeping bag, and most of the boots that I wear. Why go out and buy a $100 back pack when I have a perfectly good one for free. That is why I use the Military gear.

 

This scout is thrifty. Not to mention if I tear one of my pairs of camo pants, I can just go and dig out one of the 30 other pairs that I have. instead of having to go out and buy another pair of 20 to 30 dollar scout pants. Once again, thrifty.

[Bob White]

Once you decide to do things incorrectly its easy to come up with all kinds of reasons to justify the decision.

 

The interesting thing is that once you decide to do things right you can find just as many reasons to support that decision as well.

 

Character is not displayed in the reasons you come up with, it is shown at the time you make the choice to do it right or wrong.

 

No one says you need to wear new uniform pieces. For almost a year or more the BSA gave significant discounts when you purchased the shirt and pants together, and yet some leaders still chose to misinform the families regarding the correct uniform and to misrepresent the program by encouraging improper uniform.

 

For generations parents have taught their children that no one cares what excuses you can manufacture, what matters are the choices you make. It's still true today.

 

Amethyst was right from the beginning, the uniform does not include jeans, camo, or other non-uniform pieces of apparel. It is unfortunate that people agree to lead the program, they just don't want to have to follow the program.

 

Lets hope this generation finds other adults willing to set a better example.

 

There is simply no justification for knowingly doing the wrong thing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Eagle92]

Bob White,

I find it quite uncourteous to insult people by wishing that they were not involved in our program, especially a brand new leader who has been active 4 months at the longest, as your post seems to suggest. Specifically this comment Lets hope this generation finds other adults willing to set a better example.

 

And are you saying that those who do not have the financial resources should not be part of the program? Again that is what it appears by your post. If that was the mentality of my leaders when I was a youth, I would NEVER have been able to be a Scout. Not everyone can can afford name brand camping gear like backpacks, canteens, and the like. I was fortunate to haev stuff given to me, and to have a place in my hometown that sold some type of quality products at a very reasonable price. It just happened to be a surplus store.

 

You state that Character is not displayed in the reasons you come up with, it is shown at the time you make the choice to do it right or wrong. My question is this: What if you have never been told something is wrong? In reference to GI surplus equipment, the only documentation showing a prohibition is a memo sent to scout executives only and never published in any document for volunteers? As stated previously In my entire scouting career,as a youth, volunteer, and professional. I have NEVER heard of this prohibition until this post. Further I would say some councils are in violation of this prohibition as I have seen lots of government surplus equipment in the form of cook kits, cots, tents etc. in my 6 years of working camp staff in two councils. Also In one council I was with, the SCOUTREACH units were equipped mostly with GI surplus from the 4th Marine Division. So again my question is how can you know something is wrong if you never were told?

 

I personally think character is shown when you take the time to make a difference in someones life by working with them, giving freely of your time and resources to make them better, and not by insulting them.

 

(This message has been edited by eagle92)

[Beavah]

Yah, the memo was a memo about scout camps and other council events, eh? It's a memo for SE's. What it's tryin' to accomplish is to make sure that in some areas of the country the scout camp doesn't look like Pappy's Young Marines. You know, 600 kids, mostly in camo, has a look & feel that the BSA doesn't want as part of its image. People might think we're da Waco compound or somethin'.

 

That's not at all the same thing as a few boys or adult leaders wearin' their camo pants or hunting jacket on a troop outing, eh? Which is why there is no prohibition on wearing camo incidentally as part of unit activities published anywhere in the scouting community. It's an urban legend. A fiction.

 

As far as uniforming goes, it is marketed and sold to be "uniform", eh? As a Method of Scouting, it has value. Like all Methods of Scouting, there's goin' to be variation in how well any particular unit is going to do usin' the method. Some units run extensive, international outdoors trips for Outdoors Method. Some work hard to do a few local car camping trips in the good-weather months. Some adults are grand at Adult Association, some struggle as mentors relatin' to kids. Same thing happens with uniforms. Worth workin' on, but not worth calling people lousy scouters over.

 

There is a BSA trademark interest in preservin' the uniform, so nobody should be claiming that camo pants are "part of the uniform." At the same time, there's nothing ethically "wrong" about allowing boys to wear camo pants with their uniform shirt on an outing, if that's what they happen to have. Nor is there anything wrong about a troop not requiring a full uniform for some or any events. Lots of units recognize that it's easier to get lads into shirts for a meeting because it doesn't require 'em stripping to their skivvies in the parking lot to change pants.

 

Beavah

 

[Bob White]

Eagle92

I have no idea where you got the idea that I wished anyone out of the program, or why you chose to make up such an outlandish statement.

 

Read this carefully and slowly so that there is no misunderstanding...I never said that scout who has not yet obtained his complete uniform should be criticized or punidhed in any way. The only thisn I said was that A Scout Leader has no authority to alter the BSA uniforms by telling a parent that the scout can wera camo, or jeans, or dockers or any other Non-uniform piece of apparel innstead of getting a complete uniform.

 

There is no excuse for a leader not knowing what the correct uniform is. And there is no reason for a Scout Leader to not encourage, support and communicate to parents and scouts what the correct uniform is. To do so speaks poorly of the leaders understanding of his or her responsibilities as a program leader.

 

It is an intentional choice to do the wrong thing and it harms the program and the scout at many levels.

 

Amethyst understands this. She said so in her opening post. She realizes that the unit she is in should not support the use of camo or other apparel instead of the offical uniform.

 

She has less experience than many others on this forum but she made a better decision than some of them have.

 

I don't wish her gone I wish her cloned. Scouting would benefit greatly from haviong more leaders who took the time to learn how to make the right choices rather than making excuses for why they purposely make the wrong choice.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Beavah]

Yah, it's also worth readin' amethyst's posts carefully, eh? She says that lads are allowed to wear camo pants with the shirt. Not that anyone (other than their parents) is telling them that they should. Not that anyone is sayin' that the official BSA uniform is camo pants. Not even that the official pack uniform is camo pants.

 

So there's nuthin' at all to suggest that a unit leader is doin' any of the things BobWhite is talkin' about.

 

They just have some parents who don't quite get it and some lads who own half a uniform. Welcome to the club! I reckon that applies to 90%+ of da units out there. Doesn't make their leaders bad people, or their parents. Doesn't mean they're harming scouts at many levels. Just means they have somethin' to work on. I bet it's not the only thing to work on, and I bet it ain't even the most important thing to work on.

 

And it sounds like amethyst is goin' to work on it. Politely, respectfully, not by requiring a uniform but by teachin' her tigers what the uniform means and why it should be worn proudly.

 

Easy, eh? Guess we're done.

 

Beavah

 

[SctDad]

I guess that I will have to continue to be a bad leader in BW's eyes because I find that there are more important things to harp over than the color of the pants that my Cubs are wearing.

 

I do recommend that the parents buy the uniform pants, but I do not require them due to the cost and knowing how families in my pack may not always have the money.

 

I guess I will also be a bad leader if I continue to use my military ruck, because it was free. If you want to, feel free to send me a quality back[ack from a civilian manufacturer. I will gladly use it.

 

Other than that, I may always remain a bad leader in your mind, but to the boys I help out, they don't see it that way.

[John-in-KC]

ScoutDad...

 

Yes, I still use some TA-50... most particularly, the rain top.

 

Why use non-DOD gear? Mil-spec stuff is designed to be rugged. Low crawl on your pistol belt? Been there, done that. Hump 75 lbs 15 miles a day on a march? Been there, done that.

 

Recreational outdoor gear is designed to get the job done ... given appropriate care (vice some degree of planned abuse in the use). Outdoor gear conserves weight so you spend less time and energy getting up the mountain, and more time stopping to admire the view God gave you.

 

As Beavah said, a lot of commercial camouflage gear is pretty good stuff, especially if you're a hunter who is going to go to one place and stay a while. Folks who backpack tend to believe in layering.

 

I hope all this helps.

 

As to uniforming, yes, I wear a complete and proper Boy Scout(er) uniform when I do Boy Scout stuff. When I do Venturing stuff, I choose to wear Cabela's grey trou/shorts. Better quality at lesser price. For Cubs, my brother's Packs in 1958-61 were all "above the waist" on uniforming, with blue jeans being the "de rigeur" pants. When he got to Boy Scouting, it was the Boy Scout uniform.

 

 

[DeanRx]

Guess I need to turn in my son's and my membership cards...

 

Went camping two weekends ago... It got cold at night. Son has a cammo print ski jacket (non-military issue) and I wore my trusty ol' Gortex field jacket (sans rank) from my active duty days.

 

Oh yeah, and I packed some of our clothes in an old issue cammo soft back day pack... and I used my "helmet bag" as a brief case for files and paperwork. Come to think of it - I use my 'helmet bag' at most ALL scout meetings as a brief case - even when in class A uniform at district and council events!!! Can't believe they've let it go on this long without me being tarred / feathered / and run out of town!

 

Crap ! - and I wore my black Army issue rappel gloves when I was putting up / tying some ropes.

 

Dang! I even used my old OD green canteen and metal cup in front of the kids !!! Crap - I'm expelled for sure now !!

 

I understand the whole, don't do cammo w/ the blue shirt (or a Boy Scout shirt for that matter). But the link to the DE that expelled a dad and son from membership and a campground is just a LITTLE over the top. If that actually occured (which I hope it is just part of Scouting's urban ledgends), then the DE should be asked to step down as well for a willful display of breaking the scout law in front of numerous scouts in his charge... A scout is friendly, courteous, kind? Loyal? I guess not. I can see the DE taking the Dad aside and saying, "Hey, that isn't cool, it doesn't set a good example - would you please change." If the father refused - then address it at a later time.

 

Unless someone is in direct violation of YPG, fire safety, or is otherwise placing themselves or other scouts in an unsafe environment - it would be very ill advised for a DE to eject them from a campout. Let alone - revoke their membership in BSA, plus getting local police involved. Didn't know DE's had unilateral power to do such a thing? I'll have to look into that one. Besides - the DE would be bringing trouble onto their counsel with such action. Most DE's I've seen avoid confrontation like the plague.

 

All that over a pair of pants? Seems like overkill to me.

[Bob White]

Who said harp SctDad? Is harping how you lead? All that you are asked to to is give correct information. When you or others explain what the scout uniform is why would you not be able to say that it consists of official uniform pieces and should not be mixed with non-uniform pieces?

 

Little League coaches don't seem to have that problem, neither do the high school football or basketball coaches. Even the military that some scout leaders and scouts want to partially dress up as don't allow mixing uniform with non-uniform pieces. And yet you as a scout leader say you can't support it. Why is that?

 

You aggreed to lead the BSA program, no one authorized you to alter it's uniform. No one asked you to harp, they asked you to give accurate information. Amethyst seems to already understand that.

 

Why a Scouts leader would choose to do the wrong thing remains a mystery to me.

[The Beav SR831 & 948]

I have a link that really puts all of the camo stuff into perspective. I've gone to this guy who is a scouter on so many levels from way back. He goes by the name "Black Eagle." His name is Mike Walton.

 

http://www.mninter.net/~blkeagle/newindex.htm

 

He usually has the answer on an issue like this one that stirs up quite a bit of discussion.

Here is his link:

 

http://www.mninter.net/~blkeagle/camo.htm

 

As for myself, I was raised in the BSA during the time of the 60's to the 80's of what I'm finding out is being referred to as "Old School Scouting" by many nowadays. We wore quite a bit of it(camo) back then, and after having been out of the program for quite sometime and now having gotten active again and being a Scouter and Scoutmaster for the past 3 1/2 years, I have like the proverbial "Old Dog" had to learn and re-learn many new tricks. The main one being that if we want our boys to look up to us, then we need to look and act the part. We have young eyes constantly on us (our own units and others)and whether we want to accept it or not, what they become is what we project outward to them. I believe in "uniformity" and believe that by "being camoflaged" we are portraying to the general public that we have "something to hide" or are trying to come across as being "paramilitary" when we wear camo. The BSA(on the local all the way up to the national level) comes under enough flack as it is in the public forum because of pedophiles, etc. We should make every effort not to draw undo attention to ourselves. Now don't get me wrong I'm an avid hunter, gun and knife collector, and love to wear camo as well. But, if we are looking to have inexpensive durable clothing(especially scout pants and shorts), those items can be purchased from WalMart and others. It may not be exactly like BSA Regulation issue, but it wears just as well. Like many of you, I live in an area of the country that has a great many families that are suffering economically. We tell the parents/scouts whom join our troop that we would like for them to concentrate on the components of getting a complete scout shirt with all of the insignia from our local council scoutshop and not worry so much about the pants for the time being. We've started a "scout shirt bin/network" to help the new scouts, by having folks donate their "gently used" scout shirts so that the younger boys can rest easy knowing that they will fit in with the older boys and help also to ease some of the burden off of the parents. The neat thing about that particular shirt is it already has the outlines of where the previous owner's patches were, so that it serves as a "template" so that the new owner knows exactly where their patches should be placed. As time goes along, we encourage them(the scouts/scouters) to get the uniform a piece at a time so that by the time the young scout has made up his mind that he wants to stay in the program, Mom and Dad(Granny, aunt, uncle, etc.) hasn't lost a good deal of hard earned money if "Junior" lost interest in scouts and dropped out after a couple of months.(*Which only happens to 1 or 2 per every 15 that we bring into the troop...Program is everything! But that's a different forum altogether.)

 

We do however ask that the boys make themselves "respectable and presentable" the first Tuesday of every month and have their scout shirts tucked in and wear nice clean pants or jeans(acceptable shorts in the summer) to get them used to the idea of uniformity. If they can't afford a shirt, we try to at least get everyone to get a troop T-Shirt (that has all of our unit information on it) so that we have some resemblance of uniformity within the unit.

 

Unit level fund-raisers that have the goal of having the profits put into individual scout accounts for those that participated at that event work great for obtaining uniform pieces. For those whom still need financial assistance, our troop has them fill out scholarship forms for our troop to ensure that each boy has equal access to uniforms. Also, all councils should have forms that can be filled out for financial assistance that can provide scholarships for your boys.

 

If I may play devil's advocate for a second, there's been many a time that I've sent my parents to our local army store because that is the only place that carries OD green and Cub blue pants in slim sizes for the boys, because they recognized the need scouts in our area had and got a supplier to start carrying them in those sizes. BUT; AND I STRESS BUT, we tell them that National BSA policy says "NO to Camo," so please refrain from buying it for your scout while there at the army store, because there is not need or place for them in scouting. I've had a great many parents thank me later for having passed this information on to them so that they can concentrate on gettting down to the business of learning and advancement for their boys.

 

That's my 2

[SctDad]

I agree that Full uniform looks best. BUt it is expensive.

 

OK lets make this simple.

 

Can anyone show me with a link or page number in the Uniform Guide that specifically says NO CAMO. Be it clothing or gear.

 

I am not talking in a memo to the council in California, (That would be a council rule) or where one DE was being a jerk and going way overboard. I am looking for a published National Policy. I am looking for printed national publications.

 

If you can show me then I will rethink my position.

[The Beav SR831 & 948]

I refer back to a previous link:

 

http://www.mninter.net/~blkeagle/camo.htm

 

It had this to say about camoflage in it's discussion....

 

 

"Why? Why are we trying to 'blend into our surroundings', Chris?? Even with our earlier uniform -- the green khaki uniforms didn't readily blend in with the outdoor surroundings (it did a better job than the current khaki-tan shirts do), but we were not concerned with "blending in" back then, so why should we do it now??

 

Are we in Scouting "trying to hide what we're doing" in the woods?? No. We want people to see our program and what we're doing....so, there's NO need to camouflage any aspect of our outdoor program!

 

...and finally....

 

I can choose to wear whichever I want, the GSS (Guide to Safe Scouting) does not limit the colors or patterns one might wear.

 

No, it doesn't, Chris...but the Rules and Regulations (I previously stated that this was in the Charter and Bylaws) of the BSA does limit you.

 

Here's the official statement:

 

"BSA Rules and Regulations, Article X, Section 4, Clause 4. Prohibition of Alteration or Imitation:

 

a). No alteration of, or additions to, the official uniforms, as described in the official publications, or the rules and regulations covering the wearing of the uniform and the proper combinations thereof on official occasions, may be authorized by any Scouting official or local Council or any local executive board or committee, except the National Executive Board after consideration by the Program Group Committee.

 

b) Imitation of United States Army, Navy, Marine Corps or Air Force uniforms is prohibited, in accordance with the provisions of Act of Congress, approved June 3, 1916."

 

And JW Walker wrote in part:

 

I think we now need the benefit of seeing the actual written BSA guidelines concerning "civilian" camo....

 

Me too, JW. The BSA doesn't address "civilian camo" in anything except written memorandum to Scout Executives concerning "camouflage clothing worn by Scouts and Scouters" (the last copy of such a item I have was dated November 1994 and was signed by the former Program Group Director now Chief Scout Executive).

 

As part of the memorandum, it talks about the Insignia Guide being updated to reflect the emphasis...but I have three copies of the Insignia Guide here in my hotel room, and all three doesn't address "civilian camo" like "hunting gear" even though Mr. Williams' memorandum does address "hunting and military-style clothing and equipment" in the memorandum.

 

He states that "hunting and military-style clothing, combined with or worn instead of the official Boy Scout or Explorer uniform, are not acceptable wear during any Boy Scouting or Exploring activity. Scout Executives are to instruct unit leaders and volunteers that those articles of clothing along with equipment like pistol belts, suspenders and military field gear are not allowed to be worn with official Boy Scouts of America clothing or in the place of BSA uniforms and outdoor clothing." (I wish that someone will dig out that copy and send it to the Chief and tell him to please post in in the new edition of the Insignia Guide.....I think it's pretty clear but it's not out there where everyone can read and go by it....)

 

I can only post what the Rules and Regulations state, and it doesn't address "hunting camo" or "military gear", but DOES make a point of talking about uniforming which is clearly "military", as the poster asked about.

 

Does the BSA National policy on camo pants list them as "prohibited" or are they "discouraged"?...

 

I posted the exact wording, JW...it can't be any clearer than that. We in the BSA DO NOT WEAR MILITARY-STYLE CLOTHING as part of our uniforms."

 

that was the main part that I think everyone needs to see.

 

Maybe we could get Mike(Black Eagle) to join this thread....

 

http://www.mninter.net/~blkeagle/newindex.htm

 

[HobcawChaos]

As a compliment, it seems that uniform is one of the things that BSA does very well and serves to set them apart from other youth groups. It is also something that GSUSA struggles mightily with. This year they are moving back to full uniform being khaki bottoms, white polo top, and vest or sash. Thankfully, the khaki and white go along with our local public school uniform colors so everyone has them. I've tried to encourage wearing the full uniform for indoor ceremonies and more formal trip occasions (i.e. maybe only vest to the zoo but full uniform to the nursing home). Gradually the girls have gotten use to it and even expect it. Keep at it Amethyst - they'll get there.