Uniform Flag - Army style

[Gold Winger]

Very profound.

[Stosh]

Maybe so, but I was just checking my sources to make sure it was correct. The sarcasm isn't necessary. I find it sometimes necessary to check things out rather than just post unsubstantiated information.

 

Stosh

[Gold Winger]

What sarcasm?

[Gunny2862]

jblake47 said "Military in uniform do not say the pledge, they merely stand at attention. Yes the Code does reference this "exceptions" as exceptions done by the military that differ from the "Code" that is acceptable to civilians."

 

What?

 

Just because the military does a flag raising and lowering ceremony every day, and during those times anyone not guarding prisoners or engaged in an activity that would create a safety issue if the activity were stopped is supposed to stand at attention (or stop and sit in a vehicle) if on base(and salute if in uniform) does not mean that they aren't allowed to say the pledge of allegiance while in uniform.

 

There are numerous times where saying the pledge in uniform could be entirely appropriate(but isn't required and thus not always done). To include(but by no means exhaustive): Swearing in, Promotions, Award ceremonies, Openings at Reserve Drill weekends, The Service Ball(as appropriate), Dining In, Dining Out, Change of Commands, Retirement.

[Nike]

Let's all just be happy that Americans seem to love our flag to death. When we lived in Germany, no one, and I mean no one, had a German flag flying from their house. You'd see the three bars on sporting paraphernalia for national teams, but that was it. The flag belonged to the state, not the people.

 

The two guys originally in question probably had the military flag patches hanging around and decided to be thrifty.

[Gold Winger]

Gunny, here's the quote from the flag code:

 

TITLE 4, CHAPTER 1

 

4. Pledge of allegiance to the flag; manner of delivery

 

. . . When not in uniform men should remove any non-religious headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart. Persons in uniform should remain silent, face the flag, and render the military salute.

 

Since the Scouting uniform is recognized by the US Code as a uniform, we should simply face the flag and salute.

[Gunny2862]

Thanks GW, and I concur with your comment;

 

however, in context, the quote above is implying that while Scouts and civilians say the pledge that Military personnel in uniform do not say the pledge.

And on a military base at morning colors and evening colors that would be correct, but there are many opportunities where the pledge could be said by military personnel in uniform.

 

Even at morning colors it could be said by military personnel but usually isn't.

After all, just like at most Scout camps when one raises the flag and then they say the pledge. Not raising while pledging.

 

Same - Same.

[Gold Winger]

Gunny, it doesn't imply anyhing, it states explicitly that people in uniform (which would include the Scouts) should not say the pledge. Can they? Yes. Should they? No. The difference? Can I dance a jig on I-270 during rush hour? Yes. Should I? No.

 

The Congress of these United States decided that people in uniform, should not say the pledge unless they are out of uniform. Who are we to second guess them and disobey that law?

 

Who is a person in a uniform? I'd hazard a guess that since it is a federal law, the uniforms in question would be federally mandated uniforms such as the military and the Boys Scouts. Yep, the Boy Scouts uniform is recognized by federal law. Police and firefighters? Not sure about that.

 

Perhaps there is a directive from the President directing us to say the pledge while in uniform but until I see that I'm going to just salute and keep my mouth shut.

 

 

[John-in-KC]

Here's my take.

 

There are 5 different Oaths a Citizen of the United States can take:

 

- Pledge of Allegiance

- Oath of Citizenship to the United States (naturalization)

- Oath of enlistment to the Armed Forces

- Oath of office, for officers in the Armed Forces, civil service employees, and executives (up to the Vice President).

- Oath of Office for the President of the United States.

 

Of these, the Pledge of Allegiance has the least moral and legal strength.

 

The Oaths of Enlistment/Office and the Presidential Oath all bind folks to support and defend the Constitution of the United States.

 

Until I retired, whilst others said the Pledge at a public ceremony, I'd silently repeat the Oath of Office. I made it a personal touchstone to one of the reasons I chose to serve.

 

Hope that makes sense.

[Gold Winger]

Unusual but legal. :-)

[Gunny2862]

Okay.

Well.

Wrong again .

Would you believe that I had never been exposed to that provision of the flag code?

 

Given that provision, I withdraw all of my errant comments above. And issue any necessary apologies.

 

I had said the pledge apparently inappropriately, at numerous occasions, at the direction of my superiors - I am now aware of having had the unfortunate privilege of following an inappropriate(illegal) order.

 

Thanks for setting me straight!

 

 

[Gold Winger]

Don't you now have an obligation to report these illegal orders to Mark Harmon? :-)

[emb021]

He only deals with Navy & Marines.

[epalmer84]

Let's look at the current version of the U.S. Flag Code as shown by the Government Printing Office:

http://www.access.gpo.gov/uscode/title4/chapter1_.html

 

Under Sec. 8. Respect for flag., we will find:

 

"(j) No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations."

 

That's it. There is no specification for the manner in which the flag patch is worn.

 

If you want the reference for the U.S. Army, AR 670-1 is available at:

http://www.usapa.army.mil/pdffiles/r670_1.pdf

 

Page 241 shows:

"(2) The full-color U.S. flag cloth replica is worn so that the star field faces forward, or to the flags own right. When worn in this manner, the flag is facing to the observers right, and gives the effect of the flag flying in the breeze as the wearer moves forward. The appropriate replica for the right shoulder sleeve is identified as the reverse side flag."

 

So, the military does it one way and the BSA does it another both are correct. What is the fuss?

 

I found an old photo of some Cub Scouts; one has the flag on the right sleeve and one is wearing it old style with the flag over the right pocket:

http://images.google.com/hosted/life/l?q=boy+scout+source:life&imgurl=1caf1fb4dc6a4665

 

 

Ed P.

[emb021]

"So, the military does it one way and the BSA does it another both are correct. What is the fuss?"

 

The 'fuss' is that some don't understand that both are correct. They think that the military way is the only correct way, so obviously the BSA is doing it wrong and either make a big deal about it or change their flag patches.

 

The BSA is not the military, and what the military decides to do has ZERO affect on us.

 

I don't have a problem with how the military does their flag patches. I do have a problem with people thinking what the BSA is doing isn't correct (because of how the military does it) and makes a fuss about it.

 

The whole 'discussion' is tiresome.