Uniform Flag - Army style

[Stosh]

And of course the current "Code" has been modified many, many, many times since its introduction in 1924.

 

In inclement weather, a man does not take his hat off and hold it in his hand that is place on his heart, it is only lifted up hand held "hovering" over his head while off, but still offering protection from the weather. Originally men used to stand at attention and only women placed their hand over their heart.

 

So there is no tradition, not even in the Code itself.

 

Military in uniform do not say the pledge, they merely stand at attention. Yes the Code does reference this "exceptions" as exceptions done by the military that differ from the "Code" that is acceptable to civilians.

 

The Code does not set the standard for the military, it only references places where it is different than the standards for the civilians so when they see them civilians will understand. That does not mean the military adhere's to the civilian flag code of etiquette.

 

At one time there was a great debate on putting the replica of the flag on a postage stamp and how it would be desecrated by the postal stamp. Obviously the flag is no longer revered today as it once was in the past.

 

And the Code still does not "allow" for patch and pin replicas of the flag so it's rather irrelevant where they are "worn". One can sew it on a back pants pocket or they can sew it on their sleeve. It makes no difference.

 

Stosh

[Gold Winger]

"And the Code still does not "allow" for patch and pin replicas of the flag so it's rather irrelevant where they are "worn". "

 

I'd like to know what sort of "flag code" you're reading.

 

TITLE 4 CHAPTER 1 8 (j) . . . However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations . . .Therefore, the lapel flag pin being a replica, should be worn on the left lapel near the heart.

 

Looks like the "patch" is allowed as are pins.

 

I'm still waiting for an example of how the military doesn't follow the flag code. It's kinda impossible since 10 says that the President can modify rules or customs at a whim. So if the DOD wants to wear their flag backwards, they can because the Prez. okayed it.

[SctDad]

Again with the Flag Debate

 

I posted some questions here a while back to help me with some suggestions for Webelos Craftsman and knot boards. I got less replys in both of them combined for the life of the post then this one did in Two days. Someone can go and post something that they are asking for help with and get no replies, but if you bring up the Flag, Uniform placement, or how some units find that some military customs help their unit a little better, then 2 or 3 pages of posts form in the first 2 days.

 

The ARMY does their flag for their reasons. Same for the other branches that wear them if they do. LET IT GO. As for leaders that want to argue about it, there has to be something else that is more important.

 

So if the change in the leaders uniform is in question, approach them in a professional manner, let them know that the BSA wears it the other way. If they do not want to change it are you going to start an arguement that can be the death of a unit. Why not spend the time and energy on getting more leaders and better programs.

[Gold Winger]

There's a reason for that. Knots are pretty cut and dried. Buy the BSA knot book and photocopy the pages. Square knot, overhand, two half hitches, clove hitch and you've got it.

 

On the other hand, relative improtance of uniforms, flags and such will always generate discussion because we all feel differently.

 

Try starting a discussion on the importance of teaching knots that are no longer in the book and see how long it goes.

[Stosh]

" 10 says that the President can modify rules or customs at a whim. So if the DOD wants to wear their flag backwards, they can because the Prez. okayed it. "

 

And so it proves that for the military they do not have to adhere to the recommendations of the civilian Code. I can't imagine how one could explain it any better. Thanks for the quote.

 

Stosh

 

[Gold Winger]

However, by following the whims of the President, they are still following the code because the code says that the President can change things. I'm still waiting for an example of how the armed forces don't follow the code.

 

We're also still waiting for an explanation of how patches are not allowed.

 

 

[fgoodwin]

I find it odd that those who take it upon themselves to modify BSA's uniform to suit their own views, would never think of modifying a military uniform . . .

[Stosh]

Gotta love the logic. Because the code says the military doesn't follow the code, it means they must be following the code. Sorry but that doesn't make much sense in the real world.

 

Stosh

[Gold Winger]

You seem to have problems with logic. The code doesn't say that the military doesn't follow the code, the code says that the President can change the rules, so if he changes them that's within the rules.

 

You still haven't given an example of how the armed forces don't follow the flag code. Wattsamatta? Can't think of one?

 

"I find it odd that those who take it upon themselves to modify BSA's uniform to suit their own views, would never think of modifying a military uniform . ."

 

That's because it's only Scouting, nothing important like sports.

[Basementdweller]

A bunch of bickering old men.

 

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/theorderlyroom/f/faqflag.htm

 

http://www.army.com/articles/article_030505_how_to_wear_insignias_on_the_army_uniform.html

 

If the District commissioner feels that wearing a uniform battle flag on his uniform makes up for some personal inadequacy then let him enjoy his virtual man hood. I would explain to any boy exactly what it and why it is.....and then why his actions are inappropriate. This clown could be an object lesson. Make sure you complete the lesson so he can hear it.

 

 

[John-in-KC]

Note to self: Lay in a supply of the existing US flag patches for BSA uniform.

 

Wear them overtop new rubberized vinyl US flags screenprinted on new BSA uniforms.

 

BSA flag on Sr DE's uniform already looking tattered after 3 months use.

[Stosh]

Leave it up to some government bureaucrat to screw it all up. On the right sleeve with the union to the right to give the appearance of moving forward is NOT on the flag's own right, i.e. to the observer's right. How can it be to the observer's right and the flag's right at the same time?

 

And the super great analogy of a cavalry trooper galloping across the Hollywood screen with the flag streaming back and this proves it's ok to fly the flag backwards. Duh! move the camera over to the other side and everything will be just fine!

 

It is artistic liberty to make everyone feel warm and fuzzy. If one needs some special analogy how about: envision a USS man-of-war under full sail chasing down the enemy to give them a glorious broadside. Which way is the wind blowing to make the sails billow forward and then look at the flag at the back on the boat, which way is it blowing? Backwards? Maybe the Navy men should all wear their flags flowing forward to commemorate the grand tradition of the wooden ships!

 

And it also begs the question, with all the rules and regs being produced by the military, wouldn't it be a little more cost effective just to use the US Flag Code that the civilians use? There are those that think this may already be the case.

 

Stosh

[gaucho]

Thanks for the replies! Knowing the two individuals I saw using those flags, I think they do it in honor of the military, not to be like the military. Especially since I know at least one is a veteran, probably both.

 

This issue seems to have heated some people up. We need to remember that right or wrong when judgments are thrown out on their motives, we have no idea. I was just asking if was proper or not, or if there is anything specifying that only the BSA issued uniform patch was the one to be used. How often are we offended when in actuality the offender had no intention to hurt. With all of the service these two put in helping kids, I don't think it is for machismo they use the military style flag. I think they needed to put a new one on to replace the faulty flag and chose that style. But I don't know, just wanted to know the facts.

 

Thanks again to all that chimed in.

[Gold Winger]

"Which way is the wind blowing to make the sails billow forward and then look at the flag at the back on the boat, which way is it blowing? Backwards? "

 

Depending on the wind, it could even be blowing sideways.

 

I'm still waiting for an example of where the armed forces don't follow the flag code.

[Stosh]

A military veteran may be wrapped in the flag for burial and/or a flag can be buried with a veteran.

 

http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/images/hgguide.pdf

 

Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)