Uniform Flag - Army style

[gaucho]

I saw two scouters (one a Dist. Commissioner) with their new uniforms. They had replaced the flag (they applied the new one right over the old one) with an Army style (Stars on the right). The old ones were already coming off they said. I personally really liked it, but is there anything against using one of those?

[Stosh]

The US Flag Code was set up for civilians to understand what is acceptable practice to show appropriate respect for the flag. The army does not adhere, nor ever has adhered to the US Flag Code. As a civilian, I wouldn't consider the army as an appropriate substitute for US Flag Code.

 

Stosh

[Gunny2862]

Isn't there a BSA Insignia guide that should explicitly answer this question?

Yes.

It should look just like this:

http://www.scouting.org/media/insigniaguide/06.aspx

 

The Army style represents the flow of air streaming behind the Army as it advances.

It isn't really appropriate for civilians - and can be taken as part of a military uniform should hostilities breakout - which is also why the current pattern camouflage military uniform(for what ever is current) is not supposed to be made available to civilians. Although it regularly is.

[CD_Ranger]

To wear our country's flag properly, the field of stars is worn closest to your heart. Further, when worn on the sleeve of a military uniform, the flag should appear to be advancing and not retreating. Thus, if your patch is to be worn on your LEFT sleeve, use a left flag (normal). For patches worn on your RIGHT sleeve, use a "right" or "reversed field" flag.

 

Since the Flag Rules do not specifically address the positioning of the patch, a decision is left to the discretion of the organization prescribing the wear. Some elect to use the "left" flag on both sleeves. [Note: many states and cities have ordinances pertaining to the use of the flag; you may wish to contact the Attorney General of your state or the City Attorney's office regarding this matter.] If you are planning to wear only one patch, it is recommended that you wear a "left" flag on your left sleeve.

 

Military guidelines specify that in support of joint or multi-national operations (as in Iraq), the "right" flag is worn on the right sleeve (see picture), 1/4" below the shoulder seam or 1/8" below any required unit patches. (Class A uniform excepted.)

 

Some people find the "right flag" disrespectful of the flag and some are calling it the "wrong flag." They seek to gain support to encourage a change in the regulations to always use a "left flag" even on a right sleeve

[CalicoPenn]

"Flag Code" "Military Code" "State Laws" "Local Ordinances". none of these matter at all. The BSA has specific uniforming guidelines as spelled out in their Insignia Guide that should answer this question. The correct flag to wear on the BSA uniform is the official flag patch as sold by the Scout Supply Division. Flags with gold borders, flags with reversed fields, flags in camoflaged colors - none of these are acceptable according to the BSA Insignia Guide. If the flags were "already coming off the uniform" then the answer is to sew it back on, not to slap another flag patch over it.

 

Calico

[BDPT00]

"To wear our country's flag properly, the field of stars is worn closest to your heart."

 

Where in the world did that come from?

 

BDPT00

[frank10]

The Army has their reasons and the BSA has it's own.

The Army uses a flag that looks proper when they are advancing.

The BSA uses a flag that looks proper when they are spinning clockwise.

 

I can respect both.

[SSScout]

The piece of cloth that represents our country and reminds us of it's ideals is the same if hung from a ships spar or ten penny nailed to a wall. The Code for it's "proper" and "correct" display is neither legally required (which would imply a criminal offense and some punishment) nor, it would seem, widely agreed upon. (to be continued)

 

[Gold Winger]

"The army does not adhere, nor ever has adhered to the US Flag Code."

 

That's news to me. I was on a military color guard and the American flag went on the right. I've been to military funerals and they followed the flag code. When does the Army or Navy not follow the flag code?

 

 

[SSScout]

(sorry for the interruption)

 

The Flag Code is an informal guideline for the respectful display and (when appropriate) retirement of US flags. It is rather like Emily Post, a reminder of what are good manners and appropriate behavior in many situations, in other words, what is least likely to offend. And, like Emily Post, manners in one locale may not be appropriate in another. And, like Emily Post's suggestions as to behavior, such suggestions are ripe for ignoring.

Folks are always able to adapt or ignore the Flag Codes guidlines to their own situation and other folks are equally able to ignore them when they think they have a better or more appropriate way to respectfully display the US flag.

Lots of Urban Legend is available here. " Blue field worn closest to the heart". "If it gets dirty, you have to burn it". "Patch should have the blue field attached as it would appear on a wall". "Blue field should be as it would be flown in the wind while advancing (and if the wind is at your back?)". "The patch is not a flag and should't be treated as such". "If it is a throwaway item like a toothpick flag on a cupcake, do we have to burn it respectfully?"

 

Each military service, each public entity (Scouts, Campfire, police, fire & rescue, the garbage collecter), all seem to have their own idea as to how to deal with WEARING the flag. All that I have heard of, thru this forum and elsewhere, have as their goal the reminder that THIS is a symbol of our nation and its ideals. THIS is an important part of the wearer. Nowhere have I heard or seen any PROOF that one variation is superior or "more right" than another. The only thing I've heard is vague implications that one variation shows more "patriotism" than another. Poppycock.

 

But as a uniformed group, the BSA should adhere to its own established guidelines and be glad to do so. None of them show any disrespect for our nation's symbol, do they?

If another uniformed group chooses to wear the US flag a slightly different way, well, I for one see no problem and would not seek to change it.

 

Could show it vertically, I suppose...nah.

 

Show the US flag and be proud of it and be done with it.

(This message has been edited by SSScout)

[Gold Winger]

"The Flag Code is an informal guideline for the respectful display and (when appropriate) retirement of US flags. "

 

It is a very formal guideline, it is a law passed by the Congress of these United States. There even used to be punishment attached to violations of the Flag Code but that was overturned by the Supremes. However, the fact that there is no punishment attached makes it no less a law that should be followed.

[Stosh]

One has to remember that tradition and Code are often two different animals and what people do is still another. If one were to go back to the original intent of the flag they would realize that much of the code is of no consequence and people can do anything they wish.

 

With that being said. The army has it's way of doing things, other branches their way, and civilians from every walk of life have all sorts of different ways they do things too. The Code is nothing more than a codified meaningless piece of legislature that people sometimes use to appease their own ways of doing things and offers them some sort of feeling that they are somehow "doing it right".

 

If the flag is to fly free as a symbol of "free"-dom, the Code originally stated that the flag or it's representation should be flown, not worn. So this whole discussion of flag patches is a moot point when it comes to flag etiquette.

 

If one knows the history and the Code, one can find examples daily of how people have no idea that there is any sort of tradition when it comes to our flag. To pretend there is a standard, is pretty much a waste of time.

 

And yes, even the Code states that the US Navy, when asea, during worship services, has the religious flag FLYING above the U.S. Flag. So, yes, the military does it differently.

 

And it's only long forgotten tradition that perpetuates the many myths of the US flag. The Stars and Stripes refers only to the historical flag that had 15 stars and 15 stripes. Old Glory never had 50 stars. And the Betsy Ross flag did not have a circle of stars in the union.

 

But like all great urban legends and myths, they die hard. The only thing that rings true over the years is that historically, the flag carried far more significance than it does today.

 

Stosh

[fgoodwin]

Scouting is not soldiering.

 

BSA is not the US Army.

 

So can someone please explain to me why certain folks are so h*ll-bent on applying military practices to BSA's uniform?

[Gold Winger]

"And yes, even the Code states that the US Navy, when asea, during worship services, has the religious flag FLYING above the U.S. Flag. So, yes, the military does it differently."

 

Then by your own words, the military is following the flag code.

 

 

[scoutldr]

(j) No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations. The flag represents a living country and is itself considered a living thing. Therefore, the lapel flag pin being a replica, should be worn on the left lapel near the heart.