Time to get serious?

[Chippewa29]

My troop is currently at a major crossroads. I've chronicled the trials and tribulations of my troop the past several years since I became SM in 2001. A few years ago, we had 24 Scouts in the troop (up from six when I took over as SM) and things seemed to be moving along pretty well. In late 2006 and early 2007, we produced four new Eagle Scouts and while not perfect, we realized we had come a very long way over the years.

 

Due to Scouts aging out and a couple of bad recruiting years (area has been weak), our membership is down to thirteen Scouts. That is a whole other topic that can be discussed at another time.

 

My bigger concern, however, is that a wave of apathy has taken over the troop. Our troop goes camping each month on trips selected (entirely) and planned (for the most part) by the Scouts. The troop meetings are devoted to preparing for those outings and are planned at monthly PLC meetings. However, we are lucky if we get 50% of the Scouts attending campouts. At meetings, while some of the Scouts are serious about getting things done, but we have several of the Scouts that just come to meetings to hang out with the guys. They wear very little, if any, uniform and have no desire to advance or participate in the Scouting activities. The Scouts have planned some great events and really promoted them amongst themselves, but these Scouts (all 14 and older) never come.

 

If it were just one or two Scouts slacking off, I wouldn't pay as much attention to it. Some kids just want to be in Scouts to hang out with the guys and maybe go on an occasional campout (1-2 per year). These aren't bad kids, but they just don't want to do anything, no matter how much the Scouts or adult leaders encourage them. However, the slacker mentality is filtering down to some other Scouts in the troop. We have some serious Scouts that have gotten really lazy about wearing their uniforms and are goofing around more at meetings.

 

At this point, our troop is stuck in a rut, going nowhere fast, etc. I think our problem with uniforming goes back three years when someone on the committee (who is no longer with the troop) got the committee to pass a by-law (much to my displeasure) stating that pants weren't part of the uniform and the Scouts only needed wear the shirt. At the time, we had over twenty Scouts with about 70-75% that would wear full uniform on a regular basis. Now, we have maybe a third wear full uniforms on a regular basis. At summer camp this year, we had eight Scouts that wore their full uniforms for breakfast, dinner, and evening activities every day. Now, back at home, most of these Scouts are showing up at events with little to no uniform (they are told all the time they are supposed to wear it).

 

We also have an issue with discipline. As much as the youth leaders try to keep things moving, goofing off wastes a ton of time on campouts and meetings. Two of our Scouts attended NYLT and were amazed at how quickly things got quiet when the SPL put up the Scout sign. Even though our troop is a little older, there are still times when an adult has to step in and get everyone to quiet down so things can get done. Again, there isn't an issue with anyone getting hurt or things getting destroyed, but some of these Scouts just don't know when it is time to stop goofing around.

 

 

My feeling is that the time has come to change how we are doing things in the troop. We need to require full uniforms. Our problem isn't that the Scouts don't have the uniform parts they need. They just don't wear them. Also, if Scouts don't really want to do Scouting-type activities, do they really need to be at the troop meetings goofing around? Wouldn't they be better off finding something they are passionate about and doing that instead? As I said before, if it were just one or two and they weren't dragging down the rest of the troop, I wouldn't mind as much. However, the goofball, apathetic attitude seems to have taken over our troop. I think that turns off other kids that may be looking to be serious about any activity they join.

 

We recently had a Scout who told us that he wouldn't be there for the next few months because he made an "elite" soccer team that requires them to be at practice the same night as our troop meetings. This team also charges more money than we do in a year (for a season that last a few months) and requires their members wear full uniforms (they have to buy new uniforms each season along with warmups and duffle bags). This team cuts more kids than they keep. However, this same Scout (very nice kid) rarely wears a full Scout uniform and only shows up have the time. I think the only difference between Scouts and soccer is the standards that have been set. The soccer standards are very high and I think that is why he has chosen to follow more of that path.

 

Some people feel that if you try to get too "gung ho" or push uniforming or discipline, then kids will quit. However, I've noticed that the largest, most active troops in my area require uniforms and are very disciplined. If we decided to get really serious and take a more disciplined approach, I feel that we will probably lose a few Scouts. However, I feel the troop (and the Scouts that stay) will be better off in the long run if we take a more disciplined approach.

 

Should I take more of a wait and see approach or is it time to get serious and bring down the hammer? Do we start sending Scouts home if they don't have on their uniform? If we have to tell them more than once or twice to stop goofing around, do we call their parents to take them home?

 

I've tried sitting down and talking one on one with the apathetic Scouts. They may shape up for a week, but the following week they are back to little or no uniform and goofing off as much as before. At this point, unless we take more drastic actions, I don't think things will improve.

 

This has gotten pretty long. Any feedback on this would be greatly appreciated.

[funscout]

Most kids think sports uniforms are "cool" and that being in a sport makes them appear "popular," so of course the kids are willing to wear those uniforms.

 

Unfortunately, today's kids do not see scouting as "cool" so lots of the older boys are embarrassed to be seen in public with the uniform on. Personally, I wouldn't force kids to wear the uniform, or you'll lose boys. Instead, have positive incentives for wearing the uniform.

[AvidSM]

Chippewa, based on your post, it sounds like the lack of uniforming is the least of your problems. You have to solve your discipline, retention and recruitment issues first.

 

You are right in that the time has come to change how you are doing things in the troop. But, I would not start by sending scouts home if they do not have their uniform. You need to encourge the good behavior and be a positive role model. This kind of negative reenforcement will not work - Scouting is not run like a sports team.

 

If I were you, I would start by reading some of the other threads in this forum that have to do with the problems you have. Get some ideas on how to solve them from people who have been through it. Get some training if you are not already. Contact your Unit Commissioner, if you have one, and get his/her advice. And, most important, talk with your SPL and the PLC and see what they think the problems are and what should be done about them.

 

[Docrwm]

I know I'm rather new to all this but it seems to me that you said that there are Troops in your area that are doing well. Why not buttonhole one of their SMs at Roundtable and ask for their advice? What about your UC or local DE - they could be a real asset to you as they know the area and how other units close to you have managed to maintain more discipline and standards. Just a thought.

[Stosh]

My boys are all "encouraged" to wear the full uniform. Most actually do. It's a hodge-podge of uniforms because they usually get their pants and socks off of E-Bay for about $5-$10. Not a problem. Their peers usually police the process. We had one PL hold up the flag ceremony while one of his patrol members refused to tuck in his shirt. We all stood for about a minute or two until the boy realized his PL wasn't going to back down. The PL then went over to the boy with the American flag and had him hand it to another scout because he didn't have his necker on. It wasn't any big deal, it was just the necessary process every PL does to make sure his patrol looks its best for the flags.

 

I did ask a boy that was traveling back from last weekend's outing why he wasn't wearing his uniform? He was the PL and his APL was the other boy in the car with no uniform on. I asked them if this was a message they were trying to tell me about the uniform. They said no, they just didn't want to wear them. I had a brief comment about how important it was to have a PL that leads by example, and how important it was to represent the Troop as a DC in full uniform, something the APL was aspiring to become next month. The ball is in their court. We'll see what happens.

 

Stosh

[Eagle92]

Chippewa,

This is my $.02 worth and so you can take it with a grain of salt.

 

1) UNIFORMS I think you need to push them as they A) develop pride B) shows unity C) sets a standard,

and D)allows youth to showcase their achievements. I was part of a troop that had uniform inspections

at every meeting. They were recorded and were taken into account for a troop award "Patrol of the

Year" If you came to a meeting, you better be in either the Winter Uniform (full field uniform with

troop necker, woogle, and troop totem) or Summer Uniform (field uniform with Scout t-shirt only). We

had baseball players, bandsmen, JROTC cadets, and even a cheerleader who would show up at a meeting

after an activity and change into the Scout uniform. Also You had to be in full uniform for trips. If

you were missing something, you better be able to buy a replacement before we left, go back home and

get it, or you couldn't come. In my 11 years with that troop, only once did we tell someone they

needed to go home and get something or they couldn't go as it was expected.

 

In reference to the uniform pants, we did have a few Scouts who couldn't afford them. We allowed a

substitute green trouser that was identical to the BSA pants except for the BSA snap that was

available at a local surplus store. Also we had an "experienced" uniform exchange in which uniforms

were "bought" by the troop by having money placed in the Scout's account and "sold" either by

outright payment or using the Scout's account. Most of the scouts had 2-3 pairs of pants or shorts

this way.

 

2) OLDER SCOUTS What roles do they play in the troop and the expectations? Also what other activities

are they involved in? 14 and First Class with at least 1 term of being a PL put us in the Leadership

Corp, comparable to the Venture Patrol today. Every one of use had a POR from Scribe to Historian, to

Quartermaster, to Instructor. We had clear expectations and we worked with the younger scouts. While

the meetings were planned by the PLC, the older Scouts usually, but not always, conducted the

training. Yes we had guys who were involved in other activities and couldn't make every trip. We

worked with them though, and when the season was over, they rejoined the fold.

 

Another challenged was work. Some of our youth needed to work to survive, including yours truly.

Once I turned 16 and had a job, I rarely, if ever, attended camp outs because of work. And several

others were also in my predicament. However we attended the troop meetngs and passed along our

knowledge to the younger scouts.

 

3) DISCIPLINE I strongly recommend adults not get involved unless a safety issue is involved, or you are asked to intervene by the youth leaders. I do not remember my SM ever getting involved with discipline. That was the prerogative of the PLs and SPL. You mentioned the Scotu sign. That's what we used. Our troop ran on a schedule, with the inter patrol activity, or "game time," being near the end. that way whatever needed to be done could get done. If we messed around, game time would be shortened. If we behaved and finished things early, we got longer game time..

 

Again my $.02 worht and Good Luck.

[BrentAllen]

Chippewa,

We have a quarterly Honor Patrol competition, with points earned for attendance (meetings and campouts),uniforming, and patrol competitions. We let the winning patrol choose the prize, which is usually a Friday night involving a visit to Mellow Mushroom, Bruesters Ice Cream, and a lock-in at the church, watching movies all night or playing video games. They might choose a special trip for whitewater rafting or something else they really want to do. Whatever the prize, I suggest it be something they can get really excited about.

 

Our patrols push the uniforming - I don't have to say a word. Some are even to the point of bringning an extra belt or socks in case a member of their patrol doesn't have them. For the competition, we just started requiring they bring their Scout book to be considered in full uniform.

 

When boys join our troop, I let them and their parents know up front that the Scout has an obligation to his patrol and troop to attend the meetings and campouts. When he doesn't show, he is leaving his patrol a man short. I also let them know I expect them to participate in other activities outside of Scouting. This is going to create some conflicts, which the Scout will have to resolve. This is part of life, and there aren't any easy answers. We let them know all the expectations of the Troop up front, so there aren't any surprises down the road. Our goal isn't to be the largest troop in the area; I'm much more interested in quality than quantity.

 

For those older Scouts, I would suggest a SM conference with some goal setting. Have them bring their handbook and go over the requirements they are short for their next rank. Have them write in the date they plan to have those requirements completed. Do you have a High Adventure trip planned in the future, something they can really look forward to? Do they need to practice any skills in order to be ready for the trip? If so, get them working on those. Are they involved with OA? If not, that might be something to spark their interest. If they see they need to get elected by the Troop, they might start showing up and helping out more, instead of causing trouble. HTH. Good luck.

[Beavah]

Yah, Chippewa29, I think uniformin' is the least of your problems, eh? A symptom rather than a cause. That havin' been said, with the new uniform out yeh have a chance to go back to the committee and see if yeh can get 'em to buy into the higher-quality new uniform pants as part of a scout's required outdoor gear.

 

Use that opportunity to address da small uniform issue you've got, but then yeh have to address your real issues.

 

I'm left wonderin' why recruitin' has been so weak, since that seems to be one of the roots of your problems, eh? Is there somethin' you've been doin' that isn't attractive to boys or families who are lookin' at you? Was there a bullyin' issue yeh weren't aware of, or a lot of weak communication? Do the adults reach out enough to parents and lads so that each boy feels a special connection to the program?

 

That last one's important, eh? Adult Association method, da least well-described and least discussed of Scouting's Methods is way, way, way more important than uniformin'. When I see a unit with a real shrink in numbers, it's almost always an Adult Association issue. Whether the adults are gettin' tired, or spread too thin, or some new adults don't have the knack for buildin' relationships with kids, that's usually the root of it. Older boys that are disengaged but still showin' up are boys that care enough about scoutin' to show up, eh? But it takes adults to listen to 'em and respect 'em and engage 'em in real challenges for their age level. High adventure, and teachin' the younger guys, and servin' alongside adults they respect.

 

Weaker adult association also ties into discipline, eh? Lads don't behave because there are rules. Lads behave because they value relationships with the adults and each other, and those relationships come with certain expectations.

 

BrentAllen's notion of SM conferences and such is a good one, eh? Re-establish positive contact with each lad, recall why the boy is there and what his interests/needs are now, and encourage some goal-setting or new levels of responsibility. "Joey, you're into soccer and are a great athlete. I want you to be the guy who organizes our high adventure trip next summer. You can do it off meeting nights, I'll help. But I want it to be tough, somethin' that challenges even the strong scouts like yourself." Or "Yeh clearly are a natural leader and the younger guys respect you a lot. I need yeh to do Tenderfoot fitness and Personal Fitness MB stuff with 'em. Let's get all these guys up to really bein' able to do some hard biking and backpackin'".

 

I might be off my rocker, of course. Just feels like Adult Relationships to me. If not, I'd look to how you're doin' on some of the other methods of scoutin'. I'd look especially at ones that affect recruitin' more than the Uniform Method does, since recruitin' seems like a strong symptom of your struggle.

 

Goin' forward, I'd look at Patrol Method as BrentAllen suggests as well, eh? Units that get up to 20-some boys and then drop back down are often ones that have a hard time transitioning to full use of Patrol Method. Idle older boys can also be a symptom of that, eh? Nobody to lead, right when they've reached an age where they want and need to lead.

 

Unfortunately, at 13 lads with 50% attendance, you're almost back to a single patrol right now, and that won't change 'til yeh get some more kids. But be thinkin' about it!

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[GKlose]

(this was embedded within Chippewa's note)

 

Just as a side note, I really dislike the practice of a leader putting up a Scout Sign and bellowing "Sign's up!". To me, I think that encourages ignoring the sign until someone is bellowing (kind of like a Pavlov's dog thing).

 

My old SM used to put up his sign and wait. When he was Program Director at the local camp, he did the same thing. He'd just wait, in a dining hall filled with 200 scouts. After awhile, everyone would catch on (but there might be another adult bellowing "Sign's up!" -- aaargh!). The most I ever heard him say, with his sign up was a whisper of "I can wait all day if I need to".

 

So, does that trick work any more? Can a leader just wait? Use "the stare" and melt some icicles while you're at it?

[croushorn]

Did it just last night. Still works as good as when we were kids.

[shortridge]

Oh, yeah, it works.

 

Might take time to get 'em trained, but I've done it myself under the circumstances you've described - loud dining hall or campfire, Scouts' attention on other things, lots of talking and noise.

 

The sign goes up, and you can just see the silence spreading in concentric circles from the sign-er.

 

Sometimes it comes down to one or two Scouts or leaders still jabbering away, and they only realize it with the collective glare focused on them. Kind of amusing.

[AlFansome]

 

 

Yep, my Cubs sure quiet down quick at Pack Meetings when I put up my sign and wait....if only my Wolf Den leader would be so obedient and stop screaming "Signs Up", even after repeated requests from me quit his habit.

 

The boys are so much easier than the parents... :-)

[Eagle92]

I also hate the bellowed "SIGNS UPS." My first SPL, and everyone who followed him, including me and those who succeeded me simply raised our hands in the Scout Sign. Usually that worked, but if it didn't, in a simple, normal, conversational tone "I've got all night" would do the trick.

 

I would modify what Beavah said. Yes adult relationships are important, but I would focus that on the older scouts. They are the leaders in the troop, and THEY should be the role models and examples for the younger scouts. Adults should focus on the older ones.

 

Just my $.02 worth.

[Beavah]

Yah, I agree wholeheartedly with Eagle92's modification!

 

And with everyone who simply can't stand when some adult bellows "SIGN'S UP!!".

 

Darned if that bad habit isn't hard to eliminate, eh? Even seen good troops go to a camp or a camporee and suddenly that "SIGN'S UP!" thing starts poppin' up because they saw some other unit do it. I have considered waterboardin' the perpetrators.

 

Beavah

 

[Kudu]

As far as the new Switchback Scout pants go, our Troop started using similar green nylon zip-offs ten years ago. We sold parents on the idea because they can be used for school. Unlike the official dress-designer version that preceded them, boys are not embarrassed to death to wear them in public.

 

This is really the biggest problem with them: Scouts like them so much that they wear them everywhere, so they eventually fade from constant washing.

 

Eagle92 writes:

 

I would modify what Beavah said. Yes adult relationships are important, but I would focus that on the older scouts. They are the leaders in the troop, and THEY should be the role models and examples for the younger scouts. Adults should focus on the older ones.

 

I agree with Eagle92 and I would take it a step further.

 

You need to focus on Top Dog: the alpha male of your older Scouts who still goes camping.

 

Since the Scouts who "goof off" seem to have won out over the Scouts you describe as "serious about getting things done," then Top Dog is probably one of your trouble-makers, and most likely Top Dog does not wear his Uniform

 

Maybe Top Dog has already had his "turn" at being SPL, or maybe nobody votes for Top Dog because he is too scary (as was true in my last Troop).

 

If Top Dog is not SPL then find a way to start consulting him about ideas for campouts, first one-on-one, and then in front of the other Scouts. For good or bad, Top Dog is the true leader of your Troop and your greatest potential resource.

 

Note that a common problem with "boy-run" as it is understood in the States, is that boys don't always KNOW what they want to do, and they get bored because they can't think of any cool new ideas.

 

If campout attendance is down because you always do the same things, try both Baden-Powell and "Green Bar Bill's" advice and get your Troop into Wide Games!

 

Wide Games usually appeal to natural leaders like Top Dog (mostly because the adults can't keep up).

 

Note that in Traditional Scouting it is the ADULT's JOB to first research the Wide Games and then explain how a half-dozen of them work first to Top Dog and then (if possible) have Top Dog explain a few to the Troop. Boys will not as a rule learn new games by reading them.

 

See Wide Games:

 

http://inquiry.net/outdoor/games/wide/index.htm

 

and Night Games:

 

http://inquiry.net/outdoor/night/index.htm

 

Kudu

 

One of our methods in the Scout movement for taming a hooligan is to appoint him head of a Patrol. He has all the necessary initiative, the spirit and the magnetism for leadership, and when responsibility is thus put upon him it gives him the outlet he needs for his exuberance of activity, but gives it in a right direction.

 

--Baden-Powell, from the article "Are Our Boys Degenerating?" circa 1918