Merit badge sash + OA sash

[FScouter]

I really doubt anyone is going to tell an Eagle Scout at his court of honor to remove his OA sash. But if misinformation is posted on an internet chat forum don't be surprised if someone posts a correction.

[BrotherhoodWWW]

"But if misinformation is posted on an internet chat forum don't be surprised if someone posts a correction."

 

FScouter what exactly do you mean by that? Are you as a Mod taking a side and which side is that?

 

[Bob White]

ursus,

Who said anything about telling a Scout at his Eagle Court to remove his OA sash?

 

I cannot find anyone in any post suggesting that. What made you make such a inference?

[FScouter]

Its been posted a number of times in this topic that either thats what we do, or its OK to wear an OA sash at a non-OA event. Thats what we do is fine, but Its OK or its allowed is subject to refutation, quoting BSA sources, including OA sources, to the contrary.

 

If an Eagle Scout chooses to wear his OA sash at a court of honor, he is certainly welcome to do so. But if he claims that BSA says it is OK to do so, he may be challenged. Several posts have already challenged the assertion.

 

Personally, I think it would look silly to wear both sashes, and if one chose one sash over the other, the MB sash at a COH makes a lot more sense than an OA sash. My personal opinion only and not a slam to OA.

[croushorn]

BW: Nobody has. What moved me was that I DO find it interesting, even sickly enjoy reading how some can expend such excitement going back and forth arguing and doing more one-ups than my two daughters.

FScout: Ive not seen Scouts wearing both at the same time either. While I have seen plenty of Scouts wearing their sash with their MB sash on their belt. That seems ok with the uniform police.

 

[Gold Winger]

"FScout: Ive not seen Scouts wearing both at the same time either. While I have seen plenty of Scouts wearing their sash with their MB sash on their belt. That seems ok with the uniform police."

 

Only because the uniform police were not doing their job.

 

 

[Bob White]

Ursus,

Follow me on this because I may not be the only confused on this.

 

You wrote..."Anyone that should come into one of my Troop's Eagle Courts of Honor to tell any of our Scouts, certainly the new Eagle, that he can't wear his OA Sash will politely but firmly be asked to sit down and be quiet or they can leave."

 

So I asked you..."Who said anything about telling a Scout at his Eagle Court to remove his OA sash?"

 

And you replied..."Nobody has"

 

But yeah, somebody did...You did!

 

The thread was about wearing the OA sash and merit badge sash correctly. Up to the point of your post the only thing being discussed was what the OA said the instruction were for wearing the sash. A related conversation was 'what was an appropriate resources for that information', the current handbook or what was in a handbook 30 and 40 years ago.

 

AT NO POINT did anyone other than you suggest telling a scout at his Eagle court to take off his OA sash. So why throw that in to the conversation??? No poster suggested doing that, and nothing in any BSA resource suggests or instructs anyone to do that. How was that germane to the conversation?

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[croushorn]

BW: Sorry youre so confused, dont make a mountain out of a mole hill. Yes, youre right, I did suggest it because it would appear to me that it is the next logical step. Weve defined the actual rule based upon the interpretation of the finest of grammar and punctuation, so now what?

Look, it appears to me you enjoy the academic discussion and the art of debate, and thats fine. I appreciate more the application of what I read and learn here. I dont pretend to know much, other than what has worked for me in my specific little world. I come here to learn and grow, and maybe be able to deal with future situations better or help out others that are struggling with places Ive been. So while some discuss/debate/argue about exact wording and rule of this or that, I prefer to see how those wordings actually apply to what I do as a leader, and maybe more importantly to me anyway is how those interpretations effect the boys were supposed to be doing this for. I cant believe the typical tenor of many of these threads is what LBP had in mind 100 years ago. And, quite frankly, is why this forum drives away a lot of incredible and experienced Scouters from constructively contributing. But thats just my opinion, which Im sure someone will take me to task on.

 

All this is cool, dont get your skirt so ruffled man relax go teach a kid a knot.

 

[gcnphkr]

"Weve defined the actual rule based upon the interpretation of the finest of grammar and punctuation, so now what?"

 

No, there is a lot more we can do in the area of parsing the grammar and punctuation. But pointless.

 

So now what? How to apply it? Keeping in mind that a scout is courteous, it would be inappropriate to tell a scout about to be honored for earning his Eagle (or the scouter at round-table, or the scout at a troop meeting for that matter) that he shouldn't wear the OA sash. If he asks, absolutely you should tell him. During a uniform inspection, certainly. It is a uniform but the scouts are not in the military. There are no BSA sanctioned Uniform Commissioners whose task it is to enforce uniform protocols. If he wore it to his SMC or BOR I would mention the instruction. He probably just doesn't know, but I would then leave it him to decide if he wanted to follow that instruction.

[Eagle92]

Don't have the most current edition now, but the last edition did say something to the effect that the sash is appropriate on special occasions, i.e COHs, dis and cncl. banqets, etc. We had this question come up at a roundtable because we are trying to reestablish the OA in the district and we wanted Arrowmen to wear the OA sash at the district banquet. It actually helped. We had several adults wear their sashes to the district banquet, had a nice little set up with more info on the chapter (and to brag on the success to date of our efforts to rebuild), and we now have some movitivated new adult members in the chapter who are supporting the program and the youth in the chapter. IMHO having Arrowman with sashes on is THE best form of promotion, especially since my current lodge does not give out flaps to new members until they do an additional 7 hours of service.

 

On a personal note, I think it is appropriate for the OA sash to be worn at COHs and other special event. After all the youth of the troop/team elected him into the Order because he was an example to them of the Scout Oath and Law. It is not only a recognition of being a member of our Order, but also a recognition of the esteem and respect the Arrowman holds within the troop. After all if the Scouts didn't approve of the Arrowman, he wouldn't have been elected.

[BrotherhoodWWW]

It does matter. I feel the need to restate what i have written here.

 

It is my opinion as a currently serving OA Adviser that the current HB says that it is appropriate for an Arrowman to wear his sash to a court of honor. The sentence in the manual lists three seperate and independent times when an Arrowman can wear his sash: at OA Functions AND at special Scouting events And when an Arrowman is giving special service while needing to be identified as an Arrowman. It is my opinion that that is precisely how it is written. To look to a previous version of the OA HB for clearification is also reasonable to establish the intent of the rule. If National OA committee wished to change the rule, which IMHO would be a significant event, I believe they would also ensure that future publications were worded in a way that made it very clear.

[John-in-KC]

Once upon a time, all we had on our uniforms to distinguish ourselves as Arrowmen was our Lodge flap (and I can remember when those were precious to dole out!) and our Universal Arrow pin/ribbon. The sash was reserved for OA events. That was 1970.

 

Now, we have multiple flaps, "pocket rocket" miniature sashes sold by Supply Corporation, totem necklaces (my Lodge for sure, I think others), and on and on.

 

I'll gladly let a young man define "special Scouting events" as is in the current Handbook for himself. For that young new Ordeal, his first Troop meeting after the Ordeal may be a special Scouting event. For me, I wear mine less often anymore. That's ok.

 

ICS

[Bob White]

"Yes, youre right, I did suggest it because it would appear to me that it is the next logical step."

 

So once we have determined what the OA says in their current handbook, you think the next "logical step" is to tell an Eagle Scout at his Court of Honor to take off his OA Sash????

 

What possible "logic" is there in that behavior.

 

I would have thought the next logical step would be to train new OA members in the proper customs and courtesies for wearing the sash.

 

Since nothing in the BSA...in any training...or in any resources... has EVER suggested what you suggested how could it possibly be the next LOGICAL step?

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[croushorn]

For what it's worth (which I don't feel is all that much...):

In 2003 printing of the OA Handbook (my most recent copy), top of page 58:

The sash is to be worn at Order of the Arrow functions and special Scouting activities, when members need to be identified as Arrowmen rendering special services."

In 2004 printing of Insignia Guide (again, my most recent copy), bottom of page 46 it only references that the OA sash is not to be worn with the merit badge sash.

 

Thats it, as simple as that. Is there any other place it would be addressed?

 

[gcnphkr]

ursus: This is were we take the grammar back up again. You may ignore it if you like.

As written:

 

The sash is to be worn at Order of the Arrow functions and special Scouting activities, when members need to be identified as Arrowmen rendering special services.

BWWW is correct that here is a common error in the sentence. What to do about it? BWWW believes the correction should be something like this:

 

The sash is to be worn at Order of the Arrow functions and special Scouting activities [and], when members need to be identified as Arrowmen rendering special services.

I contend that it is like this:

 

The sash is to be worn at Order of the Arrow functions and special Scouting activities, when members need to be identified as Arrowmen rendering special services.

So, for starters, both remove the comma. The clause is essential; it changes the meaning of the sentence so it should not have the coma. Note that I am now finished. BWWW must add the additional conjunction "and" in order to get to his meaning.

Next, it is often useful to speak the sentence. The spoken sentence is unambiguous.

Finally, the sentence begins with an imperative, "The sash is to be worn". It does not say, "The sash may be worn". It is not optional, something left up to the wearer. It must be worn at OA functions. I think everyone can agree on that. But must the sash be worn at a court of honor? Only if there is a need "to be identified as Arrowmen rendering special services".(This message has been edited by jet526)