KNOTS

[Eagle92]

Well I thought about the national supply angle and ribbons since they had bars and whatnot in stock, BUT they were not big sellers and I know my store wished they didn't have to keep them in stock. But I thought I saw a knot at one time being being proposed.

 

As for only wearing the ribbon in the sea scout uniform, this Scouter is no longer registered with a ship, he's a district scouter who only wears his sea scout uniform, with the council level insignia, when he does camp promos on the council's sea base. He's a plank owner in it and is very proud that the council's sea base is going well, but upset that they disbanded the ship affiliated with the sea base. Most of the Time he's in a green venturing uniform.

[Sarge]

"If we expect the youth to be proud of being a scout and their achievements, why shouldn't we?"

I also agree with OGE.

We are supposed to lead by example, including via uniforming. If we don't take pride in our appearances or accomplishments, why should they?

But I do think there is a point where enough is enough...

[msmjr2003]

Good morning, friends; new member to the forums, so please excuse me in advance if there's a culture here that I accidentally bump up against incorrectly...

 

As an Air Force veteran with continued service in the Civil Air Patrol, I'm no stranger to the BSA's cousins to ribbons (these knots). Personal druthers based on personal biases and experiences?

 

I have four BSA knots (Eagle Scout, Arrow of Light, Youth Religious Emblem of Faith, Community Organization Award). They look fine on my (now) older "red-tabbed" BSA uniform, which I've allocated for more formal events (Courts of Honor). Alternatively, the new Centennial Uniform looks more akin to the "BDU" field type uniform to me, so I've opted to leave off nearly everything.

 

As I've mentioned before, I have personal biases re: "stuff" on uniforms. My professional USAF exposures compelled me to "bling out" at the right times and to forego trinkets at other times....which generally were standard duty functions or field activities.

 

I concede that other services have different mantras, as well as might the BSA. But for what it's worth, we got by pretty okay in the Air Force without stopping to note if somebody had/didn't have Commendation Medals.

 

To be clear though, I would never presume to hold my opinion over others; I'd shake hands with the most blingy Centennial Uniform-wearing Scouter as sincerely as I would another who opts to "keep it bare."

 

Everyone can certainly have their own slant; that's one aspect of the BSA that makes this organization a fine thing from which young folks learn about life (as I certainly have and continue to do now with my own son and BSA legacy).

 

V/R,

-Mike(This message has been edited by msmjr2003)

[MVScouter]

Did everyone catch the article on the BSA knots in the newest edition of Scouting Magazine? So now we know the exact number currently.

 

Sometimes I question the colors choosen. The Doctor of Commissioner Science knot looks too much like the Distinquished Commissioner knot. Only a gold border was added.

 

I think the NESA Lifetime Member Knot was unnecessary. If anything, they should bring back the NESA dangle to show membership.

 

Once again, I will say the one knot the committee should have added is for the OA Vigil Award. That is just my opinion. You can't buy that knot like the James E West or the Lifetime NESA.

[skeptic]

Not sure why you might feel a Vigil knot was needed. If you are active, then you should be wearing the arrow ribbon with the Vigil device on it. Why would you need a knot?

[shortridge]

I never liked the OA arrow dangle because it kept flopping around. If you've got your lodge flap, it accomplishes the same purpose. Non-members will ask you about the OA, and you can explain it without getting into a whole lot of detail about the honors. If you're at an OA function, you're probably wearing your sash.

 

As for pink neckerchiefs - try an entire camp staff lined up with muted-hot-pink scarves. The official designation was "coral," but no one called them that. (They became collectors' items, of course.) Another year, it was kente cloth - a stylized African design that I always thought was cool, kind of like a tartan pattern.

[scoutldr]

While the Scouting magazine article explains how to get the knots right side up, they got it wrong in at least two instances in the pictures.

[Eagle92]

An OA knot would be nice. As I mentioned elsewhere, some lodges do have restrictions on their flaps, so not everyone has a flap on their uniform. Also let us not forget our sea scout brethren who are no longer allowed to wear OA flaps on their uniforms.

 

Glad that policy was not around when my OA lodge created the sea base and the attached sea scout ship. Only unit I ever knew of that had all Vigil Honor members as adult leaders, and every single one of us wore the lodge's Vigil flap. (This message has been edited by eagle92)(This message has been edited by eagle92)

[shortridge]

... lodges do have restrictions on their flaps, so not everyone has a flap on their uniform.

 

You're right. Sorry, I keep forgetting this, having come from a lodge that churned out a new specialty flap every couple of years.

 

Not to get off-topic, but I continue to think restrictions are a ridiculous policy. The sash is supposed to be the indicator of the honor, not the flap.

[Eagle92]

Short,

National came out witha policy in Aug 2007 stating that lodge flaps would no longer have membership distinctions, i.e. No more Ordeal, Brotherhood, and Vigil flaps. However our Supreme Chief of the Fire at the time stated that we should exhaust our existing supply of Brotherhood and Vigil Flaps before ordering anymore patches. And we had just ordered a bunch of flaps prior to the national mandate.

 

What I mean by restriction is that you must do 7 hours of work as a MEMBER before getting a flap. So brand new Ordeal members do not get a flap, just the sash, handbook, and OA dangle. This is an issue that coems up every year, and the majority of youth on the ECM like it the way it is. Maybe over time it will change.

[scoutldr]

In our lodge, an Arrowman can purchase and wear the flap immediately following his Ordeal ceremony. For most of them, that's the last time we see them at an OA function.

[skeptic]

In ours, new Ordeal members get a service flap as part of completion of the Ordeal; but the primary flap, which is restricted to 4 per life, cannot be purchased until Brotherhood is completed. At that time, they can buy two; one for Ordeal and one for Brotherhood. A third can be bought for Vigil, and one more for completion of a local hike, approved by the lodge, to the peak featured on the flap. Incoming members from another lodge cannot buy flaps to cover past levels, so when I joined as a Brotherhood member, I was restricted to 3 max. But, as noted, most Ordeal members disappear after the initial weekend. Also, it is really sad that few members attend Ordeal weekends unless they are going for Brotherhood. Most who do are adults, rather than youth.

 

I cannot help but think that many of the changes in election and ceremony have contributed to the once high esteem OA membership had. Now that it is pretty much a "make 1st Class and camp 15 days and nights, including one summer camp" rubber stamp in a majority of units, it has lost a lot of its luster. And I see the same thing happening in some units regarding Eagle, unfortunately.

 

 

 

[sdcc57]

I am familar with the section in the BSA Uniform Guide,and the BSA website,that lists CURRENT square knots.

But there are several knots for awards that are no longer presented;an example would be the old knot for the Air Scout/Explorer Ace.As I understand a Scouter who properly earned such a knot may continue to wear it if he wishes.In this case he may prefer the old knot to the current knot that replaces it.

A more recent situation would include awards such as the Spurgeon Award within Exploring.While this was a traditional program up to 1998 it had a square knot.Now that it's a program within LFL I believe the knot is intended to be worn only by those who received it up until the program change in 1998.

Is there a definative list of OLD official BSA knots including a description or drawing/photo?

[emb021]

I believe the recent article in Scouter about knots showed many of the defunct knots.

 

There aren't that many.

 

 

Also, regarding the restrictions on OA flaps. MANY years ago, National OA asked lodges to stop doing that. This was before the more recent ruling to stop having separate flaps for the different levels: "The National OA Committee recommends that no restrictions be placed on the purchasing of lodge flaps."

 

There is also the OA ribbon, that every member may purchase and wear.

[emb021]

I believe the recent article in Scouter about knots showed many of the defunct knots.

 

There aren't that many.

 

 

Also, regarding the restrictions on OA flaps. MANY years ago, National OA asked lodges to stop doing that. This was before the more recent ruling to stop having separate flaps for the different levels: "The National OA Committee recommends that no restrictions be placed on the purchasing of lodge flaps."

 

There is also the OA ribbon, that every member may purchase and wear.