KNOTS

[GNX Guy]

Thanks Bob White,

 

I knew there was a "41" in the page number somewhere.

 

 

 

 

[FScouter]

"I do however disagree the new Philmont knot, that is just a knot you buy."

 

Oviously you haven't read the requirements.

[evmori]

41 what?

[PACK15NISSAN]

FScouter:

 

I have read the requirements for the new Philmont knot. Not to get too deep into because this is not the forum for that but you either have to attend twice, recruit 3 people to attend and teach a course on what you learned or attend 3 times, recruit 3 people and share what you learned (again abriged for time reasons).

 

I live in East Coast, I can't fly out New Mexico and then spend $300 plus for a training course just to get a knot. The teaching or sharing of information is the only part that doesn't involve money. Just a way to generate revenue, they might as well say make a $1000 donation to PTC.

[Bob White]

I see the problem Pack15Nissan,

 

You think the that you should do the work to get the knot, when in fact the knot is a recognition for the work you did to be a better scouter, by developing not only your skills but by encouraging others to develop as well.

 

You are only looking at the cost of attending the conference when you should be focusing on how attending the conferece benefits youth.

 

For instance. In the conference I was involved in we took a survey and found that if the attendees were to take the skills they learned and put them in action it would affect the quality of scouting for over 8000 youth over a three year period.

 

If each of those particpants got three more people to attend, imagine the number of scouts that would benefit?

 

Don't you think that kind of impact warrants recognition?

 

You are looking at the price tag while we are looking at the results as measured in the benefit to youth.

 

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[FScouter]

That's a very cynical view of training. I paid a lot more $$$ than that for 5 years of Scoutmastering "just" to "buy" a knot.

[BadenP]

Then the question becomes should the knot or the training you received become the focus of attending PTC. Philmont is all about the experiences you have, not about doing enough to receive another cloth decoration for your uniform. If you feel that some award is required for doing what every good scout leader should be doing, improving their skills, then your motivation as a scouter would seem to be very self centered. Time for an EGO check.

 

I have been to Philmont,PTC and the Sea Base twice over the years and the only recognition I need is from the smiles on my kids faces.

[PACK15NISSAN]

Okay Bob and Fscouter:

 

If the new PTC knot is not about money, they why is it new? Why not retro people who have already been there?

 

Because they are trying to increase revenue, hoping that offering knot will entice people to attend (which judging from the comments of you 2 works).

 

I am not implying that PTC is not good training, or even that is isn't worth the money, but to offer a knot that is finicially not available to many is buying a knot.

 

I respect knots, I think they are a great incentive to leaders and a great example to the boys, but just like the James West Fellowship Award. If you have the $$$ you can get a knot. I can promise you (and you both know it) that there will be people with this knot in a few years who can't even tell what classes they took or what they learned.

[Bob White]

That's an easy one Pack15Nissan

The main reason it was not made retroactive was that trying to document the evidence for the second requirement of Track 2 ("recruit 3 people to attend a Philmont Training Center Course"), would have been impossible when you consider the number of years the center has been in operation and the number of people that have been through the courses over the years.

 

They do however have a tool in place to be able to do that now and through the future. So they they began the program from ground zero. This is not the only recognition that has been done this way and will likely not be the last.

 

If it were about financial support Pack15Nissan they could have just said "donate $xxxx to the Philmont Foundation and get a Philmont Training Center Knot", but it is not a money based recognition.

 

 

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[LCScouter]

PACK15NISSAN

 

I tell you why the PTC Master's knot is new --- no one thought about it before. The Pack Trainer knot is new --- you can't retro it. Although, come to think about it, the Pack Trainer replaced the Den Leader Coach (which also had a square knot).

 

You have to start somewhere with recognition. There was a time in Scouting when you could get Eagle BEFORE Star or Life Scout Rank.

 

It's not always about money, but ways to improve PROGRAMMING. The requirement that a Scouter come back and TEACH is the key to the PTC Master's award, not the money. The James West knot was to stop some Councils in the BSA from the practice of presenting Silver Beavers for donating large sums of money and get back to giving it to deserving individuals for Service to Scouting (although the case has been made here in forum about giving money vs time as Service to Scouting).

 

ALL of the square knots represent recognition for something done in Scouting. We all have to EARN the recognition and we all end up PAYING for it --- be it "sweat equity" as volunteer serving for years, or a finanicial donation to Scouting.

 

Either way, we are helping to "Deliver The Promise ..." and insuring the legacy of Scouting for generations of Scouts to come.

 

The square knots, the recognition, is NOT what Scouting is about. It is about teaching the kids the ability to make POSITIVE choices during their lifetime and to have a set of values that they can utilize throughout their lives.

 

Recognition is the vehicle which the BSA uses to help youth members learn and achieve the goals and mission of the BSA, and adult volunteers "Deliver The Promise ..." to the youth members.

 

The BSA does not require adults to wear the square knots, just like the BSA does not require youth to earn advancement. Learning and putting in to practice what one learns and setting a good example is what Scouting (at least to me) is all about.

 

 

Thank you for letting me get on my "soap-box" for a bit.

[FScouter]

"Because they are trying to increase revenue..."

 

Really now. Think what you're saying! Here's another one for you: The purpose of recruiting new boys into the program is to increase revenue $10 a head, and the purpose of retention is to keep that 10 bucks coming in year after year! Ka-ching! Ka-ching!

 

[Bob White]

Philmont is all about the experiences you have, not about doing enough to receive another cloth decoration for your uniform. If you feel that some award is required for doing what every good scout leader should be doing, improving their skills, then your motivation as a scouter would seem to be very self centered.

 

The problem I see with this statement is that it confuses two distinct groups and their motivations.

 

The first group is the one that creates the recognition and the second is the group that receives the recognition.

 

The opinion in italics show above suggests that the knot was created and approved either to make another knot or to appease people who want to get knots. I see no evidence that either is true. The Training Committee that created this not is the same committee that created the Scouters Training Award, and The Scoutmaster's Key. Both require that you attend other training courses (some that cost money to go), it even includes attending PTC as an option, it also requires you to train others (just as the Philmont knot does).

In addition, all three recognitions are there for two reasons; 1) recognize the scouter accomplishments and personal growth, and 2) As a positive motivation for others to work toward the same growth.

 

So from the standpoint of the developers of the recognition there is no evidence of the self-centeredness or egotism suggested by the poster.

 

The Second group is made of the recipients of the recognition. Because the BSA offers these knots as recognition for the work and self-improvement of the scouter, I think it is fair to accept that that is how those who earn it most often view it.

 

We probably all fit into one of three categories when it comes to recognition. 1) Those who appreciate being recognized, 2) Those who need to be recognized, 3) Those who want to be recognized.

 

It has been my experience that most adults are in the first group, and that a minority of adults falls into either of the last two. That includes adults in or out of scouting. However, just because there are some who need to, or want to be recognized, that does not mean that the recognition is flawed or that no one should be recognized.

 

Some posters might find it interesting to learn just how the BSA decides on these recognitions. BadenP used to be a professional for almost 6 years, I am sure he would happy to explain the process to us. BadenP...

 

 

[Stosh]

"We probably all fit into one of three categories when it comes to recognition. 1) Those who appreciate being recognized, 2) Those who need to be recognized, 3) Those who want to be recognized."

 

And of course there is another one that seems to have been omitted from the list: 4) those who don't care one way or another about the knots. I have been given knots over the years, all of which were submitted by others in recognition of my work. It's kinda like getting recognized for doing your job. I get my "reward/ego boost" from working with the boys, not another patch on the uniform.

 

Stosh

[skeptic]

Funny, when I first came back to the program, I felt embarrassed every time I was singled out for something, such as a plague or certificate. When I was awarded the DOM, it finally dawned on me that deep down, it really made me feel good. Still, as noted, the best feeling is the awe in a young scouts voice when he looks at his first real starscape, or the pride in the boy that accomplishes a feat he has worked really hard to do. We all, I hope, keep the focus where it belongs most of the time; but we still enjoy the recognition.

 

JMHO

[LCScouter]

We have been talking about recognition and square knots and the meaning behind them.

 

There are many forms of Leader Recognition, some you wear on the uniform and some you don't.

 

To me, the best form of Leader Recognition is when a Scout looks at a Scouter and you can see the look in the Scout's eyes and the broad smile on his face --- that says a lot right there!

 

knowing that I helped (in some small way) Scouting's goal of "delivering the promise" to the Scout and making a difference in that Scout's life is what keeps me going after 40+ years of Scouting!

 

Embroidered pieces of cloth and medals are nice to have, but I rather have the knowledge that a Scout has grown in Character and developed a positive value system that will guide him for the rest of his life.

 

To me, THAT is the B-E-S-T Leader Recognition I could ever hope for as a Scouter!