New Eagle Knot Variety

[John-in-KC]

P212,

 

I expect "sweat equity" as part of any training or service award Scouting gives. We do need to motivate and retain volunteers.

 

In the two recent award announcements, NESA lifetime member and PTC, my specific objections are:

 

1) There is an award already in service (standard Eagle Scout knot, PTC conference temporary patch)

 

2) The new award has a monetary basis to it ((a) We already have the West family of awards) as the primary basis of earning it.

 

3) The sweat equity to earn the knot is minimal.

 

I have good friends who have Award of Merit and the Beaver. They are some of the hardest working Scouters I know. The lady who is Director of our Council Bear Resident Family Camp... she is also a District Commissioner, will transition this summer to Asst Council Commissioner, is Dean of next years COmmissioner's College, works on the Commish training team, is active in our OA lodge, and on and on and on.

[Gold Winger]

"I have good friends who have Award of Merit and the Beaver"

 

The have "the Beaver"?!!? What are Ward and June doing? Has the FBI been called?

[FScouter]

When I made an FOS contribution I was given a special council shoulder patch. Should I give it back so I can be a "real" Scouter?

[emb021]

FWIW-

 

Many organizations have recognition/awards for those donating money to the organization's endowement at different levels. Encouraging people to present these 'awards' on behalf of others is also done, and I think a good thing. All orgs need money, and I find nothing wrong with this.

 

I don't mind the West award and all the rest. I like the fact that now with the existance of such awards, that it reduces the need to give out DAM and Beavers and the like to people who mainly/only give money, and allows these awards to go to more volunteers who are giving more 'sweet equity' then cash.

 

I'm not sure how I feel about the fact that the West award has a knot, but its a done deal. Not too keen on the NESA Life Member knot, tho or this new PTC knot.

 

[John-in-KC]

FScouter,

 

I've been given a couple of pencil signed and numbered prints for my higher end FOS $$$.

 

What emb021 said: Whether its Scouting or my alma mater university, non-profits have endowments and actively fundraise for them. The West family of awards keeps the pressure off the "sweat equity" awards from being dollar driven.

 

My problem is simple: Will someone show me the sweat equity that goes into a 180 dollar contribution for NESA, vice 25 bux every five years? We're not talking the equity that got the young man his Eagle. We're talking after-effects.

 

Ditto PTC. What sweat equity goes into getting folks to apply for it? I can build a display just like what my Patrol did in WB, touting PTC, and when names come down the line... boom, I'll get a knot?

 

For SB and DAM, for those who I know who have them: Hard work, across years, to make Scouting happen for kids is what get folks these. Not $$$(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

[jaxvol]

I think the new knot says - "my Eagle is better than your Eagle". I would support a new knot just for NESA before I would a special Eagle knot.

 

I am a life NESA member because I am too lazy to renew and they caught me when I had a comma in my checkbook. My sons both are Eagles and have the standard five year membershtip that I got them when they earned Eagle. Am I "more" Eagle than them?

 

What about the other leaders who are Eagles and don't have $180 to buy a knot? What is their reaction to me?

 

Eagle Scout is Eagle Scout is Eagle Scout -- we don't need degrees of Eagle Scout

 

 

[NeilLup]

I guess I'm a bit confused.

 

The various knots look different. They can't be confused. There's no way that a Silver Beaver can be confused with a James E. West knot.

 

So what harm does it do if someone gives $1000 to the council endowment and gets a James E. West knot? They wear the knot. Does that in some way hurt you or negatively impact your ability to improve the citizenship, character and fitness of youth?

 

If you qualify for a knot and don't want to wear it, then don't. If someone else qualifies and chooses to wear it, how is that a problem and how does that hurt you?

 

If it motivates someone to spend money that they have supporting Scouting and getting knots for doing it, why is that bad? Who is hurt? What points of the Oath and Law are violated?

 

If someone has several knots and you don't, how is that a problem?

 

What am I missing?

[Mr. Boyce]

Neil, I'm inclined to agree with you.

 

The problem, however, is that people tend to naturally lord it up. So giving someone something as constantly visible as a knot may encourage that tendency. Much better, in my mere opinion, is to give the guy a nice plaque he can stick on his wall at home.

 

I suppose a better way to put it, the feelings or sensibilities of those non-West scouters gets aggravated by the visible display of wealth.

[jmwalston]

Does anyone have an idea what the PTC knot looks like? This is the first I've heard of it.

[NeilLup]

jmwalston,

 

I believe it is New Mexico colors, probably yellow background with red knot.

 

Mr. Boyce,

 

I hear what you are saying. However (and I apologize for the Latin), I believe that the attorneys have a saying "post hoc, ergo propter hoc." The English translation can be correlation implies causation. It is logically incorrect.

 

There are people who lord it over others. They have the biggest, shiniest toys, the nicest clothes, they make certain you know that they have lots of money and power, etc. (It can be exceedingly interesting to hear such people giving training on the topic of "Servant Leadership.") If they don't have square knots, they will use some other means to show their status and is Scouting doesn't allow them to show it, they will find some other organization that does.

 

I have yet to see a person who points to their chest and says "Look, I have the James E. West square knot, aren't I special!!!" I do know of a number of people who have the James E. West knot who had it funded by others and who wear it to communicate that they believe that supporting the council financially is important.

 

In short, I'm not sure that the problem, if there is one, is with the wearer or their actions relating to the knot. The problem, if there is one, is with the people who don't have the knot, see it, and feel in some way inferior because they can't afford it.

 

Yet these people have no problem, for example, in going to Philmont. Let's face it, having a 150,000 acre honking big place named for yourself is a lot more in your face than a square knot. Yet that's how things are in the big giving charitable arena. If you want to get the big bucks, and if we want Scouting to continue as it has, we need the big bucks, you need to do what big buck givers want. And very, very often, they want recognition and legacy. Sometimes, it is gracious, sometimes less so but the result is, presumably, better citizenship, character and fitness for the next generations of youth.

[FScouter]

There has been endless discussion in the forums about those who "lord it up" by sewing a 1/2" patch on their uniform. I just never could see how anyone could get aggravated over the other guy having something they did not. The same objections could be said of the guy that has a newer car or a fancy new backpack. Anybody can have any car or backpack or award they want; just put in the sweat, money, leadership, or whatever is required to get it. What's the big deal about what the other guy has?

[skeptic]

Years ago, I went through a period where I considered not wearing knots, as when I was able to wear more than a row, it kind of embarrassed me for some reason. But, my own scouts told me that if I expected them to wear their insignia as earned, and wear it properly and proudly, then I should do the same. They even convinced me once to wear all the medals at COH, just because it was "formal". I only did that once, as they clank and get caught on things. Still do wear the Eagle and God & Country on occasion, as well as the Beaver at the annual meeting. We all know people who have tried to earn or obtain as many knots as possible; and they mostly are pretty good scouters, but seem enamored of the knots. As has been pointed out, they do not hurt us, other than occasionally our feelings; especially the rare ones that started this part of the thread. Do what you feel comfortable with, and don't let pettiness blind you. MHO

[Trevorum]

That reminds me ...

 

... one of these days, I'll have to get around to sewing on those last several knots.

 

[FireKat]

"But, my own scouts told me that if I expected them to wear their insignia as earned, and wear it properly and proudly, then I should do the same. " (emphasis added)

The point is earned not bought. Yes, reward people who financially support scouting but don't make it look like a service (working) award. Keep them different so people can see those that just give money and those that just work and those that do both. Give life members of NESA somthing else besides a variation on the Eagle knot. I want to know who has working experence with the boys so I knowwho to ask for advice. If they all wear knots how would a newbie know who has practical experence and who is just supporting by money and really no practical knowledge in how to deal with the boys. Let's not make things confusing.

[NeilLup]

With deep respect, Firekat, methinks you do protest a bit too much.

 

The James E. West knot is one knot. If someone "buys" that knot and wears it only, they will have one knot. If some newbie decides that someone is knowledgeable because of one knot that would be exceedingly unusual. Or let's say that the person has four "earned" knots and then receives the James E. West, they will have five. If a newbie would decide that a person deserves little respect because of four knots but measurably more respect because of five, that would be very unusual.

 

And this would need to be a real newbie because someone with some experience would know what the James E. West knot is and would give it appropriate consideration.

 

Was there some circumstance where you believed that you should have gotten respect and didn't relative to someone who has the James E. West square knot? If so, I deeply regret that but I don't think that it can be blamed on the James E. West square knot.