GMitch Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 The following text is excerpted from usscouts.org regarding the Arrow of Light Square Knot for adults. "Note that the current "Arrow of Light" patch worn by youth members (shown below), was called the "Webelos award" from 1941 to 1967. When the current Webelos rank was created in 1967 (replacing the Lion rank, the former Webelos rank was renamed the "Arrow of Light". Scouters who earned the patch under the old system are also eligible to wear the knot shown above. It's basically the same award with a different name." I concur with this, and there are even some BSA Councils who have very similar statements regarding the wearing of the AOL Square Knot by adults who earned their Webelos Award. My question is does anyone know of a BSA National policy confirming this, or is it left for SE's to decide on the Council level? I have 2 fellows in our unit who are a little older and earned the Webelos, but the local Scout Shop staff is not in agreement with them wearing the AOL knot. Thanks for any help offered.(This message has been edited by GMitch) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAHAWK Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 Every source that speaks to your question, including Councils and the US Scouting Service Project, says that a Scouter who earned the Webelos Award (vs. Webelos rank) is just as entitled to wear the Arrow of Light Knot as any Scouter who earned the Arrow of Light Award. Scouting.org, being ahistorical for the most part, does not mention the Webelos Award (if the "search" feature can be trusted). Your local Scout Shop staff needs to reconsider their position. If they do not, consider going directly to your Scout Executive. Here's a cool history of uniform knots: http://www.sageventure.com/history/knothist/IllustratedHistoryofKnotEvolutionPart1.pdf Good luck.(This message has been edited by TAHAWK) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Winger Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 Remember, the local Scout shop staff are just that. Scout Shop Staff, not that there is anything wrong with that but they don't always have all of the knowledge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CalicoPenn Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 If I'm not mistaken, the knot for the Arrow of Light is not a restricted badge, meaning you should be able to buy as many as you want without having to tell the Scout Shop folks who is getting them. Just go ahead and purchase the knots (if the Scout Shop folks are being Nosy Neddies, tell them its for multiple uniforms) and give them to the folks who earned the Webelos Award from 1941 to 1967 (which is the equivalent of the Arrow of Light). Calico Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GMitch Posted March 31, 2008 Author Share Posted March 31, 2008 Thanks for the responses guys. Gold Winger kind of hit it on the head that while the shop staff may not always know everything, they think they do, and sometimes assume the role of the BSA Uniform Police. Calico, on ScoutStuff.org, all of the Square Knots are restricted and have the following note: " Availability: This is a restricted item. Available only in your local council trading post or Scout Shop with required paperwork." I have seen several Unit websites mention that this knot or that knot is "not restricted", but certain Councils must be more liberal than others on their policy regarding square knot emblems. Our Council is taking the policy that ALL knots are restricted, and require documentation. The Senior Scout Shop Manager asked me to show her some evidence of what I was saying from in fact National. I could not do that offhand, but I did share with her a Council website which had essentially the same policy aslisted above. I asked her to please get clarification from the SE or National. It is just not right that this policy vary from Council to Council on displaying a National recognition. I am giving her time to respond with an answer before I contact the SE for further clarification. I am hopeful that she will straighten it out and contact me without having to make a big stink about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oak Tree Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 Or you could post on the forum and ask for a friendly person to mail you a couple. Our council will just sell them to you. We've had this discussion before, about knots in general. Some councils will sell them with no documentation at all, others expect you to be able to demonstrate that you've earned them. Even if you earned the Webelos Award in 1960, it seems entirely possible that you've lost the required documentation. Of all the knots in the shop, this is the one where I would be least likely to ask for documentation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GMitch Posted March 31, 2008 Author Share Posted March 31, 2008 Oak Tree, Thanks for the suggestion, and I've actually had some people offer to do that through Private Message. I would like to give the Council the opportunity to do the right thing first though, not only for the benefit of the Scouters in my unit, but for all in the Council. A scout is "Trustworthy". I would prefer them to say "hey you're exactly right, we're going to let these guys wear the knot representing the award". You bring up another good point in who actually has the paperwork from 1960 laying around handy to show to the Council office? Again, a scout is "Trustworthy". I guess there are some sick, demented, psychos out there who would get their jollys wearing square knots for awards they did not earn, but I think the local Scout Shop should lighten up a little and allow folks to purchase items like this where the paperwork may not be obtained. Heck, even in their own office they cannot produce my records going back 13 years because they had a flood that dmaged equipment and records. How can they expect people to have records that are 40 or 50+ years old? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Winger Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 I still have my Wolf card from 1967. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jstephens42 Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 It really should not matter which council the scout shop is in. The employees at the shops I've been to are all national employees. Although I'm sure most of them are also registered in local councils as well, but they should be following a uniform national policy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScoutNut Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 "The employees at the shops I've been to are all national employees." Then the shops you have visited have all been National Shops, owned by BSA National. However, not all of them are. There are many council owned shops out there, staffed by council employees. Also, just because it is a National Shop, does not mean the shop employees are any more knowledgeable. Our shop went National last year and the folks who worked at our council shop were a LOT more knowledgeable than the folks who staff the shop now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emb021 Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 "Also, just because it is a National Shop, does not mean the shop employees are any more knowledgeable." Sadly, true. I happened to stop by my local National Scout Shop, when a scouters involved with Venturing was buying items for a Venturing uniform. He had picked up the "Venture" strip and was asking the employee where it went. They didn't know that strip had nothing to do with Venturing. Thankfully, I stepped in and straightened things out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epalmer84 Posted April 1, 2008 Share Posted April 1, 2008 Our SE has a policy of not hiring volunteer Scouters as office staff I have no idea why. This means that the folks in the shop have no background in Scouting and have only "catalog knowledge" of what they are selling. I don't go in the shop that often, but it is always interesting and at least they retain what they learn. Such as, orange loops are for Varsity Scouts, not Tiger Cub leaders. We don't have any teams in our council, but they don't know why we have the blaze loops. I did convince them to put the pre-1998 Venture crew patches out as collectibles. Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oak Tree Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 I was at our Scout store and they had some Assistant Scoutmaster - Varsity patches. I suggested they put them on eBay, since they clearly weren't going to be getting any requests for them. They must have been sitting in a dusty box in the back of the store for how long? I tried to figure it out with a a quick google search, but I don't know when Varsity officially stopped being part of a troop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emb021 Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 "I tried to figure it out with a a quick google search, but I don't know when Varsity officially stopped being part of a troop." Guess you didn't check out my website: http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Falls/8826/ Varsity stopped being part of a troop in 1995. At that point, the ASM-Varsity position was dropped and the Varsity strip moved over to the Varsity Scout Teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oak Tree Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 Well, I didn't say I tried really hard... :-) I've seen your web site before, and it's great. I'm not sure why it didn't pop up when I searched this time. At any rate, that means they've had those patches in the store for at least 13 years. Might be time for some type of computerized inventory check. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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