Saluting

[OldGreyEagle]

Rooster,

 

Where in my posting did I disrespect the military?

 

To "quible" over whether or not a saluting Boy Scout should be vocalizing the Pledge of Allegiance is silly. I can picture nothing more patriotic.

 

To argue whether or not Boy Scouts is paramilitary is also silly.

 

We salute the flag ( in respect to it and

the Armed Forces who

defend it)

We have ranks

We have Reveillie

We have post the colors

We retire the colors

We have taps

We have the troop "fall in"

We have Courts Of Honor

We Have Boards of Review

 

We follow a military model of organization.

Our founder was a military man, and a well gifted one as well. I see nothing wrong in admitting we have a military heritage.

 

At the National Jamboree the Order of the Arrow had a wonderful presentation called "Scoutopia", in it was a quote about the slovenly manners of today's youth and it listed may bad habits, and it was also attributed to Socrates.

 

I have faith in todays youth to perform as need be as well as I have faith that they will be given role models to follow my our generation

 

 

 

[jmcquillan]

For those who might view the military as being a bad influence on boys, those in Scouting in particular, just a thought or two.

 

In the military, the wearing of the uniform is part of what brings the members together, forming a team, and a bond. It plays a part in forming the bond.

 

It's quite the same thing is Scouting. The uniform displays membership in a common organization. It helps to form a bond. Thus, the military is a good example in that regard, and should not be ignored.

 

Beyond the uniform, and continuing on the notion of a common bond, the military strives to eliminate the notion of the "individual", and instills the concept of "team".

 

We do that also in Scouting. For sure, we do not attempt to eliminate the concept of being an individual, for that is far beyond the scope or need of our function. But we do, in fact, attempt to instill the concept of "team" in practically everything we do. Thus we practice the concepts of "troop" and "patrol", very similar to, and based upon, those very same concepts in the military. They are good concepts, the military practices them, and the military should not be ignored.

 

What we should not be doing, is pushing those concepts beyond that which is needed to make the BSA program work. We do not "need" close order drill. We do not "need" morning PT. We do not "need" to approach the use of firearms in Scouting in the same fashion that the military does, but we do attend to their use and safety for purposes far different. They're firearms nonetheless. There's a whole realm of military practices that we do not "need". The salute is most likely based upon the notion that people in uniform salute in a fashion different, hand to brow, and likely comes from BP's military experience, although I have no links or books to prove that point. The military salute is not something we "need", but it has become accepted tradition, and the simple fact that it bears resemblance to that which the armed forces do, does not, in my mind, present a good reason to do away with it.

 

The military is, indeed, a good example. But only if kept within the context of Scouting and the BSA program and needs. When we begin to see troops that dress in full camo, and practice close order drill and PT, (and I've seen a couple), we begin to take the apparent similarities too far. That is where we might want to redirect the similarities, but not cut the cord entirely.

 

 

[Rooster7]

OldGreyEagle,

 

Once again, I have fallen victim to some of my bad habits. My response is provoked by a number of incidents over the years that have left a bad taste in my mouth. In short, I hope Mike and you will forgive me...Obviously, from your post, you are aware of Baden Powell's background and his motivation for starting the Scouting movement. I'm very passionate about our country's history, the Scouting movement, and many other organizations, events, and traditions that have formed our heritage. In my experience in Scouting (and elsewhere), I have found many folks re-creating history to fit their political agendas. I'm not striving to be a self-appointed watchdog. However, as a result of my passion, very often I am compelled to respond...and sometimes, I'm the one guilty of a "knee jerk" response.

 

Regardless, we're in agreement. BSA is not a military group. Our Arm Forces should be respected and honor. Scouting does have a military heritage. And I might add, it's a heritage we should celebrate.

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Rooster,

 

AMEN!

 

To hear Baden-Powell describe the scouting movement in his own words, try this link, you will need real player

 

http://www2.chsscout.net/rescenter/video/index.shtml#section4

[OldGreyEagle]

PS Rooster

 

I dont believe you have to apologize for your passion, heaven knows I dont for mine.

 

 

[yarrow]

God bless America

God bless Scouts

God bless the military

and God bless all you well informed and passionate Scouters

Yarrow

[glpete]

OldGreyEagle

I was in the service also and I know alot of military people that do not know the Flag code.

I had a retired military person tell me I was wrong when I saluted after the Flag left my hands during hoisting the Flag.

 

I know to some it is a small thing but when teaching Flag Etiquette it has to be answered.

When in uniform which salute should be used, hand over your heart or hand salute, when reciting the Pledge of Allegiance?

 

 

[glpete]

While looking in the United States Code I found this:

United States Code

TITLE 10 - ARMED FORCES

Subtitle A - General Military Law

Part II - Personnel

Chapter 45 - The Uniform

(j) A person in any of the following categories may wear the uniform prescribed for that category:

(1) Members of the Boy Scouts of America.

(2) Members of any other organization designated by the Secretary of a military department.

 

To:

"WE ARE NOT MILITARY" the Flag Code is not just for the military it is for all Americans.

 

[PaPete]

I just checked the internet by searching flag etiqette and found several sites. At the top of the sarch results was official flag etiqette. There were two web sites that were good. They cited to flag code:

http://americandisplay.com/american-flag-etiqette.htm

http://girard248.org/holidays/flag/flagday

Now that this discussion has started if you check the Title 10 and 4 you will find several ways that the flag is presently being displayed violates the code. The Title 10 under uniform definition list the Boy Scoout uniform and any other reconized patriotic uniform. There is no mention of head gear. If you want to start another discussion look at how the flag will be displayed on a vehicle.

 

[OldGreyEagle]

As I understand The United States Code, title 36 section 176 states "no disrespect shall be shown o the flag of the United States". Having Boy Scouts salute the flag while reciting the pledge of Alligiance and saluting does not show disrespect.

 

 

[Mike Long]

Rooster7 (and everyone else here) no one needs to apologize for anything said here.

I assume that we are all interested in finding answers witht the best of intentions.

 

The portion of the flag code that I was responding to was explained to me as such that "persons in Uniform" referred to the US military.

 

Do I ignore "that part?" If I do it is unintentional.

 

When teaching respect for the flag I use the only book a Boy Scout needs....

 

...The Boy Scout Handbook.

 

 

I'm done.

[Chippewa29]

This discussion has gotten pretty deep. I'll only make a couple of quick points. First of all, I don't see much wrong with doing some morning PT (we don't do it, we have enough trouble getting the Scouts out of bed), as long as it is done with respect (as should everything with the Scouts). After all, doesn't a Scout pledge an oath "to keep myself physically strong".

 

In regards to other "military" scenarios, we (Scouting) can take the best and use them in development of the boys. While on staff at JLTC ten years ago, we held daily uniform and campsite inspections. We even did a "paper towel test" (white glove) on the dishes to test is they were clean or not. As the week went on, those inspection results got better and better and became a source of great pride amongst the patrols. We are not preparing them for battle (which many people tend to think anything remotely "military" is doing), but rather helping them to develop discipline and pride.

[glpete]

I was told by our Scout Exec. that any questions on Flag Etiquette for the Scouts are answered by The Amereican Legion Americanism Committee.

This is the responce:

 

Thank you for taking time to contact National Headquarters with your question. I am the staff member responsible for flag education and etiquette.

 

Wht The American Legion does to get around this issue is to allow for our members to "come out of uniform" i.e. we removeour cap, place it over our heat with the right hand, and recite the Pledge of Allegiance: if our members elect to remain covered and salute, they remain silent.

 

Hopefully this well resolve the situation. Pleases feel free to contact us if we can be of any futher assistance. Thank you for your patriotism and concern. May God bless the United States of America.

 

Sincerly,

 

Michael D. Buss

Assistant Director

Americanism and Childern & Youth Division

 

In my area the Scouters are now starting to recite the Pledge of Allegiance with the right hand over the heart. Mybe some of this "Old Dogs" can learn something new.

 

 

[FScouter]

In a group of uniformed scouts saluting the flag it would look strange to see some saluting, some with their hand over their heart, and others holding their hat over their heart. While any of these approaches show appropriate respect for the flag, we should all do it the same way. I have never seen any official BSA literature that states holding the hat or placing the hand over the heart is is the correct way for a uniformed scout. The BSA Insignia Guide, in the Flags section says "The hand-to-forehead salute is correct for flag ceremonies for any person wearing a uniform of the Boy Scouts of America." "The hand-over-heart salute should be used when not in uniform."

 

Uniformity in Scouting is important.

[glpete]

May be it is time to teach the right way. After all when you ask a boy to tie a square knot a granny will not pass.