Uniform uniformity, function and the military

[kraut-60]

I served 20 years in the USN...had plenty of uniforms "left over", none were free...gave them to the Sea Scout Ship to use...Wear the CORRECT part(s) of the uniform...or dont bother to wear it. The "I was issued these and Blah..blah..blah" is NOT an argument that holds water.

 

As a former service-member,..you KNOW that wearing a uniform correctly was what was expected of you when you HAD to wear it. Now, wearing the BSA uniform is NOT required,...but from where I stand, I see it as a PRIVILEDGE...and so I feel that I am priviledged just to be able to wear it...I always wear it correctly.

 

Drop the excuses...get with OUR program...be the example...not the exception.

[Slouchhat]

Well, if I were still active-duty and it was my job to train a gang of kids, I'd be wearing my uniform, be it dress or cammies.

Although I like BDUs for their practicality and ruggedness, I don't think that camo clothing (military or hunting camo) is good for scouts. It may be readily available at next to nothing, but since the scouts are not military nor para-military, we should try to avoid leaving this impression.

If you want to use BDUs or ACUs as an outdoor/activities uniform for your troop, I think it would be a better idea to buy dark blue, brown, kgaki or coyote tan uniforms which have all the positive features of the cammies but everybody will see that they are not a camo uniform.

 

best regards,

Volker

[davlafont]

So many great discussions in one thread... it's hard to decide which to add to!

 

I look forward to the opportunities I have to visit Ft. Benning so that I can stop into Commando Supply and Ranger Joe's. I'm still on active duty (for another 18 months and counting down quickly!) and there's one glaring exception to the statement that troops don't alter the uniform: the Army's black beret vs. the patrol cap. Especially at Ft. Benning, but at other locations too, there's a small rebellion taking place over the official headgear. It's almost not worth mentioning here except to note that when it does occur, the individual is violating an Army Regulation (again, apologies to Gunny) and can be disciplined. And they do it anyway.

 

The lesson to take from this (BSA) is it is better to create uniform items that make sense than ones which cause dissent.

 

 

[John-in-KC]

Davlafont reminded me...

 

Dad had a BUNCH of patrol caps left over when he retired (1961). I wore one of them most of the way through my youth time in Scouting (late 60s-early 70s). It was warm in winter and cool in summer.

 

Fast forward to going on active duty in 1978. GAD, the fatigue cap we had was Gawd-Awful! Most LTs went and bought commercial baseball caps available at Cav Store, Ranger Joes, or Marlow Whites.

 

Then, in 1981, the BDU arrived. We got a patrol cap again.

 

Guess what? The pattern and construction? IDENTICAL to the patrol cap my Dad had. Later on, when we got ripstop BDUs, Mother Army finally made us get a ripstop BDU cap.

 

Truth be told, I still prefer the original one, but it's sort of a moot point now. Mandatory wear out of BDU within the Army came and went. ACU's are the thing now.

 

With the exception of General Shinseki and BG/Secretary White and their Armor Beret, the Army tries constanly to improve the uniform and make it better for the troops in harms way.

 

That's unlike BSA and their uniform for Parlour Scouts.

[TAHAWK]

"With the exception of General Shinseki and BG/Secretary White and their Armor Beret, the Army tries constanly to improve the uniform and make it better for the troops in harms way.

 

That's unlike BSA and their uniform for Parlour Scouts."

 

My complaints about the "Field Uniform" are hardly original. With the exception of the 100% cotton shirt, it is made of the cheapest materials. It is about unheard of anymore for fabrics to "pill up," but I have my Field Uniform to illustrate what that means.

 

And the cut and fit of the trousers - yeech! I have nearly no butt (Age does that to ya'.), yet to get pants with any room for free movement, I need to buy 4" too large in the waist. $20.00 Dickies "work trousers" are better cut for field use, not to mention better in quality.

 

The relatively new nylon "SwitchBack" trousers are a different beast entirely. They are practical, and the BSA premium does not seem as great for the Scouts as with the "Field Uniform."

 

Don't like the looks of the nylon shirt. That's just me. It's probably practical. But it seems to have "gone away."

 

Also, look at the size chart for the JacShirt. http://www.scoutstuff.org/BSASupply/SizeInfo.aspx

"Small" is 46" chest; "medium"=50", "large"=54", "XL"= 58" ???????

 

I asked several times how it could be that sizing for the JacShirt was 10" larger than any other outer garment - Scout, military, or civilian. I was told "The chart says . . . ." Well duh! Might as well communciate with a computer.

 

And our local, B.S.A.-operated Scout Store says the boonie hats are going away for Scouts (not Venturing). Only hats already in stock are available. So soon the choice will be BB caps (and sun-burned ears) or a couple of models of wool hats (lovely in Sumemr).

 

We need a "Boy Scout Center" like the military where actually knowledgable people can design and test uniforms.

[Slouchhat]

Absolutely.

That's why we buy our stuff here: www.kleiderkammer.info

We get a discount and the material is field-tested.

[Bob White]

The sizes you list are not uncommon for outerwear specs. I checked specs on 5 of my suppliers and they are equal to or within an inch either way of all of them. They aren't 10" larger than other outer garments of that style. They are about 10" larger than a sport shirt. As an example an Izod golf shirt in XL has a chest of 48". Even golf windshirts are the same or similar size specs as the BSA JacShirt.

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Gold Winger]

Sure Bob. I wear a size 46 suit. I bought a size 44 overcoat because they are cut generously to fit over that 46 suit. In your world I would have needed to buy a 48 and 50.

 

Then again . . . nah, I won't say it.

 

Why doesn't BSA (and most of the world) just go back to proper sizing anyway. My red jacket isn't an XL, it is a 50 (I bought it in my fat days). When I buy a dress shirt, I get it based on collar size and sleeve length. With BSA I have to guess what I need.

 

 

[Bob White]

Get the chorus line ready...

 

Not "my world" I don't manufacture the clothing. But I can read spec sheets from my manufacturers and wholesalers. A suit jacket and active outwear such as the BSA JacShirt are not the same thing . They aren't even in the same classification. Fleece wear, windshirts, Anorak jackets and apparel of that sort are cut much larger. The BSA JacShirt is within the industry standard for that type of clothing.

 

So you buy dress shirts by neck size and sleeve length, good for you. That is actually the right way to do it. Do you by t-shirts that way too? probably not since that type of clothing is not sold that way.

 

Do you buy suits that way? sweatshirts? Of course not. If you haven't noticed different types of clothing are sized differently. What would make you think that a jacshirt would be sized like a dress shirtt or a suit?

 

Let's sing!

 

Follow me boys, follow me,

When you think you're really beat

That's the time to lift your feet,

And follow me boys, follow me,

Pick'em up, put'em down and follow me,

Pick'em up, put'em down pick'em up.

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[TAHAWK]

The BSA dos not list the Jac-Shirt as "outerwear." They list it in the "jacket" category. I mention that fact because of the size listings for the items in the BSA "jacket" category. Namely:

 

The Commissioner's Jacket "large" is listed with a 42-44" chest.

 

The Lined Nylon Jacket is listed with a 42-44" chest.

 

The Varsity Scout Lined Nylon Jacket is listed with a 42-44" chest.

 

The Jac-Shirt "large" supposedly has a 54" chest.

 

My second oldest Jac-Shirt XL has a 50" chest. The oldest has no label, was purchased in my "salid" days, and has a 38" chest. (Was I really ever that slim? Sigh!)

 

I do not challenge the logic of this 10-12" difference in "jacket" sizes. The BSA can suit (or jacket) themselves. I just wanted to know if the sizes are accurate. I would not be using the Jac-Shirt as an outer layer since it has virtually no wind or water-resistance.

 

Each time I attempted to establish communication with the functionaries at Scoutstuff, I began by reciting what the size charts said. Each time, they answered ONLY by reciting what the size charts said. When I replied each time that I knew the numbers but just wanted reassurance about their accuracy GIVEN THE GERAT DISPARITY WITH THE SIZES LISTED FOR ALL THE OTHER "JACKETS," they replied BY READING THE NUMBERS OFF THE SIZE CHARTS. (Is there an echo in here?)

 

This was, in my opinion, poor customer service. I did not buy a new Jac-Shirt. Not worth further hassle (Or is it hasle?).

[Gold Winger]

" A suit jacket and active outwear such as the BSA JacShirt are not the same thing ."

 

Ah, Bob you're pulling the stand trick of selective reading. Go back and see the part about the overcoat. It was/is sized approximately like my suit coat.

 

t-shirts? In the gold old days when sizes meant something, I'd buy them as a 42 or 44. Now we're stuck with someone's idea of large.

 

Bob, just quit defending EVERYTHING that BSA does. You remind me of a mullah.

[Gold Winger]

"This was, in my opinion, poor customer service. I did not buy a new Jac-Shirt. Not worth further hassle"

 

They're probably in India and have no idea what a jacket is.

 

Last night my DSL went out. Phone worked but I couldn't get to the internet. I called Verizon customer service and got someone who could only read a script. First they asked me if the phone I called with was on the same line as the DSL and then they asked me to verify that I had a dial tone! When I pointed out that I had to have had a dial tone to have called them, I was asked to hang up so I could verify a dial tone. She called back. After she couldn't figure out what the problem was, she said that she'd ecalate it and wanted to caution me that I MIGHT not be able to use the internet. I replied, "I called you because I CAN'T get to the internet!"

 

Customer service is a dying artform.

 

Years ago, I called Smith & Wesson with a question and I wound up talking to the gunsmith who had put the pistol together. Now that's customer service!

 

 

[Bob White]

You guys do realize that the BSA doesn't make these things themselves or determine the sizes, right?

 

So here is the good news. The BSA publishes the specs for you to see BEFORE you buy the apparel. So whether you think the specs are too big or too small compared to other clothes you have bought, you can buy the jac-shirt the same way Goldwinger buys his dress shirts. You can measure your chest (1" below the sleeve) and measure your sleeve length, and then using the chart SUPPLIED BY THE BSA you can buy the size that fits you regardless as to whether you thing the small, med. large x-large etc. specs meet your approval or not. So rather than complain you can read the chart and get the right shirt every time.

 

Now let's sing some more!

 

Follow me boys, follow me,

When you think you're really beat

That's the time to lift your feet,

And follow me boys, follow me,

Pick'em up, put'em down and follow me,

Pick'em up, put'em down pick'em up.

 

 

 

 

[Gold Winger]

"You guys do realize that the BSA doesn't make these things themselves or determine the sizes, right?"

 

LOL! BSA makes a big deal about makings sure that things meet their specs and you want us to believe that they don't have the juice to get the manufacturers to label things the way that they want?

 

If I called up Wang Fu's Shirt Factory and ordered 1,000 shirts to be made in my color, with my special embroidery on them, believe you me that Wang Fu would be glad to put ANY size tag in them that I wanted.

[TAHAWK]

Bob White Posts: "You guys do realize that the BSA doesn't make these things themselves or determine the sizes, right."

 

Totally irrelevant, Bob. The product bears the BSA brand. BSA is the retailer. Those facts give BSA the obligation, in the market place and in law, to give out accurate information about the product. And that's only holding BSA to the same standard as binds Walmart when Walmart deals with Scouters, Scouting youth, and parents of Scouting youth. One might expect better from BSA.

 

Moreover, saying that the BSA does not "determine" the sizes for these items is a fairly scathing attack on the BSA. I have more respect for the BSA than to believe that they don't create the specs for these items.

 

Sooooooo, is the information accurate? See, your argument would have a little weight if I could be sure I could trust the Jac-Shirt chart. But, Bob, one chart could be measuring size and the other could be giving "fits" information. Why else, Bob, would one BSA "Jacket" be 10-12" larger in the cheast than all the other "jackets"? The guys in China just went crazy with the wool-blend cloth? And my existing XL measures 50". THAT IS WHY I CONTACTED THEM THREE TIMES. When asked, the representatives of BSA won't say one way or the other. "The chart says . . ." "The chart says . . ." "The chart says . . . "

 

But I love Mom Bob White rolling around on the ground and fluttering in an effort to distract the predator from the lil' chicks? Shows great pluck.

 

Play up. Play up. And Play the game.