Flag optional on uniform?

[Xyzzy]

Without getting into why someone would choose to not wear the flag on their uniform, is there an official BSA publication or scouting.org reference that says that wearing the flag is optional?

 

The BSA's Insignia Guide (#33066) doesn't clarify this issue.

 

My exhaustive search thus far has only turned up these links and quotes:

 

 

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniform_and_insignia_of_the_Boy_Scouts_of_America

 

"Official uniforms come with the US flag sewn to the top of the sleeve. Wear of the flag is optional Scouts whose religion, tradition, or personal beliefs prevent them from displaying the flag are not required to do so."

 

 

From: http://www.mninter.net/~blkeagle/usflag.htm

 

"The Boy Scouts of America makes wearing of the U.S. Flag insignia an OPTIONAL ITEM. It has been this way since 1957, when the U.S. flag emblem was first added as a piece of BSA insignia in advance of the World Jamboree in Idaho in the early 60s."

 

"Finally, Scouts and Scouters should be proud to wear our nation's flag on the uniform, but not all Scouts and Scouters can do this. So let's not be forcing kids and adults to do something which is against their moral or religious upbringing, okay?? There are several religious organizations and faiths who do NOT allow their members to wear anything which symbolizes an alliegence toward. These faiths and organizations believe that "God" or "Allah" is more important than "country" -- and this is EXACTLY WHY the BSA does NOT and WILL NOT make the wearing of the U.S. Flag emblem MANDATORY."

[FScouter]

The Insignia Guide doesn't spend a lot of verbiage with stuff that should be clear with no discussion. Is the "BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA" emblem optional? The council shoulder patch? If you searched through BSA resources and did not find an "optional" statement, that is the answer.

 

The flag patch question is not addressed. That doesn't mean it is optional, it just means that the Insignia Guide does not specify that it is mandatory. The wikipedia and Mike Walton have their own opinions, and lack of a source citation shows it's only opinion. BSA does not say "optional", so it is not optional.

 

Now if you have a boy or adult that removed the flag from his uniform, you might get some discussion from this forum about that issue if you ask.

[Gold Winger]

I'm pretty sure that the only required elements for the uniform are the BSA strip and the shoulder loops which are what differentiate it from a plain khaki shirt.

 

Walton asserts that the flag is an optional item because in the old insignia guides it was indicated as an optional item.

 

I'd like to see the flag vanish from the uniform, patriotism is more than just wearing a flag on your shoulder.

 

Hmmmm. . . maybe I'll be a rebel and take the flags off my shirts.

[RememberSchiff]

Good question. I believe it is OPTIONAL for the reasons you state but I cannot find any official documentation for you. I doubt that the uniform inspection sheets will reflect this, but I always make my own inspection sheet.

 

My scout uniform from the 60's just had a patrol medallion on right sleeve and my fine Boy Scout Handbook from that time has a Norman Rockwell scout on cover in proper uniform with no U.S. flag emblem (no silly shoulder flaps either). Frankly, I cannot recall that a U.S. flag emblem was an add-on option, as it would have been considered disrespectful to "wear" the flag as clothing back then. The "BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA" strip above the right pocket identified your country. So if it is a "tradition", it started later, maybe in the 70's and the U.S. flag code was amended.

 

 

[FScouter]

BSA Rules and Regulations -- Article X, Section 4. INSIGNIA, UNIFORMS and BADGES

Clause 4. Prohibition of Alteration or Imitation

a) No alteration of, or additions to, the official uniforms, as described in the official publications, or the rules and regulations covering the wearing of the uniform and the proper combinations thereof on official occasions, may be authorized by any Scouting official or local Council or any local executive board or committee, except the National Executive Board after consideration by the Program Group Committee.

[Trevorum]

So if the nationality of our scouting program is indicated by the "BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA" strip above our right pocket, what does the flag insignia indicate? Is this supposed to indicate the nationality of the individual Scout? Can the young BSA member who is a Canadian national wear a maple leaf flag instead?

[Xyzzy]

Posted by FScouter:

 

"Now if you have a boy or adult that removed the flag from his uniform, you might get some discussion from this forum about that issue if you ask."

 

 

We do have an adult (me) who does not wear the flag. Hardly anyone ever notices but when someone does the usual reaction I get is that I am not patriotic or that I hate my country. Neither is true. I have served two combat tours (as a medic) and I am very thankful that I live here, but I have several objections to wearing the flag on my uniform.

 

1) I feel that it is inappropriate and disrespectful to wear a flag on any piece of clothing.

2) I have a duty to God and my country, in that order.

3) How many other countries wear their national flag on their uniform?

4) Why did the BSA decide one day to add the flag to the uniform? Are we more patriotic now than we were back then, or less?

5) I practice simplicity in my life. An uncluttered uniform is simple.

 

I served on countless funeral details while I was in the Army. I never thought much about the flag until that job. When you fold the flag up and present it to the widow, it is a life changing moment, and you will never look at the flag the same way again.

 

I also feel that blindly regurgitating the Pledge of Allegiance is a bit odd. The little kids don't really understand what it means, so they are just saying it because we tell them to. The Pledge of Allegiance has an interesting history and has some controversial issues surrounding it.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance_criticism

 

I'm not saying we should do away with the flag or the Pledge of Allegiance. I just think that blindly doing things without understanding them is wrong. I'm sure a Boy Scout can fathom the magnitude of what he is saying, but can a Tiger Cub? Every time I see a group of little kids reciting it I think of the movie "All Quiet on the Western Front". Serving your country blindly is not a virtue. We say the Pledge of Allegiance so many times that the words become meaningless.

 

If one values honesty as a core virtue, why do we have to pledge or say an oath anyways? Just say you are going to do it, and then do it. Making a pledge, or in the case of the Scout Oath, saying, "On my honor", seems superfluous. Just like prefacing a sentence with "To be honest" really means that all the other times you say things you might not be truthful.

 

I realize that there are much larger issues in Scouting that deserve attention than a little bit of semantical nitpicking, but it concerns me.

 

I want my son to grow up questioning things. I want him to not blindly follow what leaders tell him. Yes, be obedient, but make sure what you are being told to do is moral and ethical first.

 

As a side note, wear of the World Crest is prefaced by "May be worn" indicating that it may be optional. I currently wear it although it does bother me that it is not earned any more, like it was a long time ago. Again, I prefer simplicity, and wearing something that I did not earn feels dishonest. The spin that it signifies "unity and world brotherhood" makes wearing it somewhat acceptable to me. I sometimes feel that we are so caught up in America's version of Scouting that we miss the big picture of global Scouting and diversity in general. Plus, it is hard to sew on straight. (I sew my patches by hand.)

 

I've rambled enough for tonight.

 

[belayer_StLouis]

I'm new to list but long time in Scouting. Camp Staff in 60's & 70's, DE in 70's & 80's after military. I have a trunk full of uniforms, old style, and several new ones. Some of my new uniforms are the original's from 1980 and they don't have the flag. I had one of the very first summer uniforms because I was a camp director that summer and the Scout Executive wanted us to wear them to show units in camp; Nat. Supply delivered them after camp. I still wear a couple of the ones w/o the flag. I don't remember exactly when the flag started coming on the uniform but I too thought that the BSA strip was enough and maybe only needed the flag when traveling for a world Scout tour or jamboree. I think the overuse of the flag on scout uniforms, police uniforms (like I wouldn't stop if a Canadian flag was on their uniform?), car bumpers and every piece of merchandise is demeaning and gives me some creepy memories. On the Philmont Forum we had a long discussion about crew leaders draping the flag on their packs on the trail; I think its degrading to the flag.

 

I am a true baby boomer, 1947 birth, so we grew up watching the old movies about Europe in WWII and I thought that flags festooned on everything that moved was part of propaganda. I agree with a previous post that the mindless daily repetition of the Pledge, and I would add the Anthem before a professional/college sporting event, doesn't add to anyone's understanding of their citizenship or its duties.

 

I had a Scouter question my lack of flag on uniform once, he didn't notice the Eagle and Silver Beaver knot, and he got a bit snitty. I asked if we could compare DD214's (Honorable Military Discharge paper)he stomped off. Not all of us need to wear our religous beliefs or patriotism on our sleeves and am sick of "patriotic" folks who believed in V. Nam (as long as their sons didn't go) and are all for a strong military as long as sons and daughters don't go. The strip says "Boy Scouts of America", good enough for me.

 

Off Belay

[ScoutNut]

Why the flag is on the official BSA uniform is not the question. The question is, is it optional.

 

I think that FScouter's quote of the Insignia Guide answers that question perfectly clearly -

 

"a) No alteration of, or additions to, the official uniforms, as described in the official publications, or the rules and regulations covering the wearing of the uniform and the proper combinations thereof on official occasions, may be authorized by any Scouting official or local Council or any local executive board or committee, except the National Executive Board after consideration by the Program Group Committee."

 

If the uniform originaly came from National Supply with the American flag on it - it stays on the uniform. According to BSA rules, we can not alter the shirt by taking it off, or changing it for the flag of another country.

 

If the uniform originaly came from National Supply without the American flag on it - it stays off of the uniform. According to BSA rules, we can not alter the shirt by adding the flag (USA or any other) to the shirt.

 

That is not "blindly going along" with something. That is following the rules of the organization you belong to.

 

[emb021]

"If the uniform originaly came from National Supply without the American flag on it - it stays off of the uniform. According to BSA rules, we can not alter the shirt by adding the flag (USA or any other) to the shirt."

 

Oh?

 

By that logic you can't add council strips, unit numbers, office patches, patrol patches, event patches, rank patches, etc, because the uniform didn't come with those on it and adding them is altering the shirt.

 

 

Give me a break!

 

The American flag patch coming on the uniform is mearly a conveniance (I wish they would also add the World Crest. Other scout associations actually embroider it on their uniforms). The flag is optional. If you have a valid reason to remove it, you can do so.

 

[Bob White]

It is the Boy Scouts of AMERICA. the Flag emblem on the sleeve represents the Natiional affiliation and has never been an optional element of the BSA official uniform.

[OldGreyEagle]

If you seek a simple life style, why take the time to remove the flag from the uniform?

 

On the other hand, if you want to draw attention to yourself and how you feel and what you have done, this is a perfect way to do it, but be honest, you want a celebration of yourself pure and simple

[belayer_StLouis]

The flag has not always been on the BSA uniform. It was not on the old versions and it wasn't on the new uniform that came out in the fall of 1980. As I said on an earlier post I'm not sure when it came with the patch but I suspect that it was done during a period of some turmoil and right after/during a presidential campaign. If your first "new style" uniform had the US flag sewn it wasn't a first edition. They are always tweeking the uniform, look at all the different versions of long pants.

[epalmer84]

>From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniform_and_insignia_of_the_Boy_Scouts_of_America

 

"Official uniforms come with the US flag sewn to the top of the sleeve. Wear of the flag is optional Scouts whose religion, tradition, or personal beliefs prevent them from displaying the flag are not required to do so."

 

I wrote that, and it looks like I need to take another look at it. I suspect I had an older version of the Insignia Guide in hand that day and did not consider that it would have changed.

 

Ed

[epalmer84]

Now that I'm home...

 

Male and Female Scouter Uniform Inspection Sheet (1978)

 

"Right Sleeve: No other insignia may be worn except U.S. flag, if desired, and it is worn as shown"

 

Scout Uniform Inspection Sheet (1978)

"Right Sleeve: The optional U.S. flag may be worn, as shown. . . "

 

Ed

 

 

Ed