Knot Me

[Its Me]

 

I have no knots on my shirt. I am sure I could find some way to get some but I am not sure why I need knots. I founded a troop so I guess I could have one for that. I am sure their are others I could qualify for having served as a leader for more than five years. But why? This is a youth program not an adult association club. Adult knots seem childish. Why do adults get all tied up in knots?

 

 

 

 

[CalicoPenn]

I don't think it's really about the knots themselves. It's about the recognition. Humans of all ages gain a sense of satisfaction by being recognized for their work and accomplishments. It might even be argued that we have an innate need to be recognized.

 

Recognition is a great motivator - a merit pay increase feels better to us than a cost-of-living increase - we feel that our employer is recognizing and rewarding us for our hard work and we respond by working harder and better. If all you get is a cost-of-living increase, there is no real motivation to do any better, or to keep working hard.

 

We readily accept this is the case with our Cubs and Scouts - we give them badges of advancement and recognition because we know this keeps the scouts interested and active and that they will work hard towards the next advancement. A Cub Scout will beam just as much for an Arrow Point as they will for a Rank Badge because they like being recognized for their work and are proud of it. Same holds true for a Boy Scout - Eagle Scouts will swell up with pride for weeks after their Court of Honor. Don't doubt for a moment that Adults don't feel the same way - we never outgrow that sense of satisfaction and pride on being recognized for our accomplishments.

 

The knot is just an outward manifestation of that recognition, and a way for us to show that we are proud of the work we have done.

 

 

[LongHaul]

If as a leader you are not interested in recognition why should your scouts? As long as I can pitch a tent and tie a knot or cook a meal why do I need to jump through all the hoops for "advancement" recognition? Setting the example has many facets.

LongHaul

[Jeffrey H]

It's Me,

 

I understand your feelings. You are primarily in it for the boys and you enjoy the satisfaction of making a difference in their lives. These should be our primary motivation for serving.

 

Even if you have earned some "knots", wearing them is an option. People will know if you are qualified with or without them.

 

The main reason I wear my "Den Leader Knot" is because my Cubmaster filled out the paper work without my knowledge and awarded it to me at a Pack Meeting. I wear it to say "Thank You". I could not have done as well as a Den Leader without the help of him and the other leaders.

[Gold Winger]

I wear my knots because I did the work to qualify for them just like I wear the silly "trained" patch.

 

I view my knots and my stars as sort of a resume. A stranger can see that I've been involved for a while and might have a clue.

 

A friend views his knots as a way of remembering the good times that he's had as Scouter.

 

They're like military decorations. Some mean a lot and some mean next to nothing.

[scoutldr]

Actually not wearing the knots never occured to me prior to reading this forum. I just viewed them as part of the uniform, just like the CSP, unit numerals and Quality Unit patch. Same with service stars. If they weren't meant to be worn, BSA wouldn't sell them. If you had a scout show up at an Eagle BOR wearing a sash with only 5 or 6 merit badges on it, what would you say? That he's just being humble? Or that he's not wearing the uniform correctly?

 

And as to the ultramaroon wearing unauthorized knots, he should have his membership revoked for being a fraud.

[Beavah]

If you had a scout show up at an Eagle BOR wearing a sash with only 5 or 6 merit badges on it, what would you say?

 

"Hi Joey! Welcome. I'm Mr. Beavah. I'm delighted you've made it so far in Scoutin'. Have a seat, relax, and lets have a conversation about your Scouting experiences. And if at any point yeh don't understand my accent, just ask me to say it again in English, eh? I don't mind!"

 

 

Teachers do a lot more work with kids than we do, and have a lot more trainin'. So do counselors. So do outdoor education professionals and guides. Yet none of 'em wear ribbons on their clothes. In the adult world outside of the military, that's just not done, eh?

 

So I can understand how some folks would feel uncomfortable wearin' a bunch of ribbons that reflect a lot less trainin' and experience. For children, a MB is meaningful. But we're adults, eh?

 

I try to keep my knots program-specific and limited to a few meaningful ones, but they aren't a big deal. The big deal is helpin' the kids or other adults and seein' their smiles.

 

Beavah

 

[Eamonn]

Seems to me that we have been down this road a few times in the past.

There isn't a right answer.

We have Scouter's who think that there is something noble about not wearing any knots. Some go as far as to look down their noses at people who do wear them.

We have Scouter's who look like they have gone out of their way to amass as many knots as they can. These look down their noses at other Scouter's who are "Knot-less"

Then there are Scouter's like me who have way too many shirts! Some have a few knots, some are bare. Two that I wore to the National Jamboree have almost all of the knots I'm allowed to wear on.

There is a uniform guideline on how many of these things can be worn on a Sea Scouter's uniform. I think the number is six? I opted not to wear any.

To be very honest I really don't care how many or how few knots are on someones shirt.

If an adult is doing a wonderful job and the knot is the carrot that is spurring him or her on? Heck I'll gladly pay the $3.50 to buy him or her the knot.

I do have to admit that the non-knot wearers who think that there is something sanctimonious about not wearing them and make a big deal about it, do tend to get on my nerves.

If that makes me childish? So be it.

Eamonn.

 

[GNX Guy]

Then there are those knot wearer's, and i think its safe to say MOST knot wearers that I see don't wear them properly, for example someone with 5 knots, a row of three, then the row of 2. That row of two is supposed to be centered over the row of three. Bugs me when I see the row of two either to the right or the left. It's like they are expecting another knot to finish their row.

[Gold Winger]

"Teachers do a lot more work with kids than we do, and have a lot more trainin'. So do counselors. So do outdoor education professionals and guides. Yet none of 'em wear ribbons on their clothes. In the adult world outside of the military, that's just not done, eh?"

 

Not really. If you hang around Washington DC for a while, you'll notice men wearing a little circular device on their lapel. They come in different colors and patterns. They are the ribbons for a Presidential or Congressional citation.

 

Police officers wear devices to represent awards. Heck, if you go to Wal-Mart, you'll notice the people wearing pins to represent training or awards.

 

Once in a hospital, I noticed a colored band on a nurse's stethoscope. I asked about it and was told that it represented an award. I looked around and many of the nurses had different bands on their 'scopes. The doctor's didn't. I haven't seen that in other hospitals but I liked the idea.

 

In many European cultures it is common for adults to wear their medals on their civilian attire, especially formal attire.

[FScouter]

That's one I never heard of. And I thought I had the Insignia Guide memorized.

[Eamonn]

GNX Guy,

I never heard of such a guideline?

Where is it posted?

I have a really bad sewing impairment. I sure as heck would never have a centered row of two, if it meant before adding number six that I had to move numbers four and five.

Ea.

[GNX Guy]

 

 

Eamonn & Fscouter.

 

Well, its "knot" what I heard, it's what it says on page 51 of the 2005 insignia guide. May I direct your attention to the last sentence in the paragraph on the bottom left of the page. "Other knots are worn as pictured on this page." Then if you look at the picture located at the center top of that page, you will see an example with 4 knots, a row of three and the 4th centered. If row's of less than three were to be placed at the left or right, the picture would clearly show that.

 

 

you may also see here for your reference.

 

http://www.boyscouttrail.com/square-knots.asp

[Gonzo1]

GNX Guy,

Actually, if the wearer has one or two knots for a row, they can be either centered or set to the side as if waiting for the complete row.

I wish I could provide chapter and verse, can't find it right now.

 

 

[ScoutDadof5]

Hmmm...Interesting...not 100% sure really, but I'll give you my thought on it.

 

But I have to admit that when I recently moved, I stripped all the knots and asundry patches off my uniform shirt before starting to attend my sons Pack. I did sign up to be a leader, but I did not want to steal any thunder from the existing leaders.

 

At one meeting, the leaders started chatting afterwards about the knots and how they wanted to get this one and that one, etc. They asked me if I had any and I just replied "A few". Now my wife piped in and said..."Get outta here! Here has a bunch!" (actually 5 with assorted pins). There went any hopes of steering clear of the lime light. Focus was quickly turned towards..."Well, why aren't you wearing them?" I just responded that I would prefer the attention to be on the boys. That's all".

 

Now the responses that I got were along the lines of ...

 

"Well, with the parents, It does help to assure them that we have had training and are experienced with scouting (ok, true).

 

Also, the boys like to see the adults with thier awards just as much as they like to receive them. (I do have the AOL and Eagle w/ 5 palms). They said that by wareing those, it shows the boys we have been where they are trying to go with thier advancement (ok, I bye that).

 

On another one, I have had the leaders send parents to me to discuss the Religious awards program. (I recently was awarded the Adult Religious Award from my church).

 

I have 2 others and the leaders just said that it is motivating to see others with them as it is encouraging to see what they can earn. (ok, I suppose so).

 

I still was not enamored with the idea of sewing them back on and one of the leaders was so interested in my wearing them, they offered to sew them on my uniform. (Ok, to that I figured, if it motivates them, and they are doing an awesome job, so be it, I'll go with the flow and said yes).

 

Now don't get me wrong, i am not embarrassed by them, just cautious about drawing attention away from others with a chest full of awards. Granted I have seen others with many more. But I do not begrudge them either way on that. If they have been honored or earned thiers, that is thier choice as to wearing them.

 

I now have several uniforms. One that is decked out. One that is plain vanilla. On the decked out one, my district commissioner said that when he was a Jamboree Scoutmaster, the council staff said that for the initial parents meeting, that the Council Jambo staff should have EVERYTHING that they had earned/received on thier thier uniforms...because the council wanted the parents to know that thier sons would be looked after by "Experienced" scouters. Now I am on the District Commissioners staff under that gentleman, and partly for that reason, I did tool up the decked shirt for occasions as such, award ceremonies, and when it seemed appropriate.

 

Its a personal choice. If you have earned it, you can wear it ...if you want to. If it's your cup of tea - great. If not, no problem.

 

Some folks are totally stoked on that. I am ok with it, but it's not what makes me tick. I would much rather see how I can help others get thiers.

 

I will say that I have friends that have none and some that have a ton and I certainly hope that I treat them equally. The knots are nice, but that doesn't make me any more or less that the moms and dads that are chasing after screaming wolves and bears or that are helping out with popcorn sales and never wear a uniform. [They could care less on the knots]. But I will tell you that I do thank them often and am always looking for ways to recognize them in other ways =)

 

Ok, so I meandered into a variety of thoughts there. (Sorry so long. I just got typing away)

 

Peace.