Should I become the uniform police?

[click23]

wingnut, Definitely not his dads uniform.

 

Eamonn, I have been pretty much thinking the same since I made the post,it's not my place. Sometimes I like stirring things up and what better to do that than a uniform question.

 

Gold Winger, I don't thing more police, but more training. One of my Wood Badge ticket items is a uniform training class. It's not going to be pointing out flaws in the scouters uniforms, but more informative.

 

For those suggesting a session at the roundtable, our roundtables don't work that way, another example of the poor commissioner service in my district.

[Hunt]

I may be a Pollyanna, but I tend to think that the vast majority of Scouters wearing the wrong knots are doing so innocently--either they have the wrong knot, or were presented the knot in error, or something like that. Just say, "Wow! Look at all those knots! What do they all represent?"

[Joni4TA]

If I saw a bunch of hooplah on someone's shirt I would ask about it. But that's just me.

[Jeffrey H]

If I see someone with tons of knots on his shirt, then so be it. I assume they are being "Trustworthy". Besides, Nine to Twelve knots stacked on a shirt looks silly (earned or unearned). I suggest keeping the number to down three for the ones you consider most important in your service to Scouting. Neatness in appearance is a guiding principal in uniforming.

 

I often find that many of the best and most active adult leaders are those that wear "plain" shirts.

[MVScouter]

I've been down this road before, so here I go again. I feel there are certain times when someone like a Unit Commissioner or a Dist. Comm. must interceed when some scouter is grossly violating BSA uniform policies. I will explain......and I am a UC--for 5 years.

 

I see patches misplaced or ones that should not be on the "uniform" all the time. 99% of the time, I say nothing. Usually, the scouter will wear what he wants to wear and that's the end of it, no matter what anyone tells him or her to the contrary.

 

But there are situations that must be addressed. Such as:

 

The district advancement chair in my district is currently wearing 2 of the same knot (it's the district key). He should know better. I have said nothing, and I probably will keep it that way--maybe. I have also seen a 20+ year scouter wear 2 of the Venturing Leaders Award. No one should wear 2 of the same knot on there uniform.

That's what devices are for.

 

2.) More of the same. This was my pitch to "Andy the Commish", the scouter columnist who chastised me from pillar to post a few years back because of this incident. Remember, I am a UC and in the Commissioners handbook, we are obligated to do uniform inspections for the units we oversee. Believe me, I have never gone out my way to be a "policeman" on the uniform, but this instance was just to much.

At summer camp 2 years back, we were in the parade field waiting for the retiring of the colors. I spotted a young scout and was instantly drawn to 3 knots above the left pocket. There were all the same--the youth religious award. I wear the same one so I am familiar with it. I could not in good conscious let this slide by, so I approached the SPL and explained why only one knot should be worn and about the devices. He said he would look into it. That was the end of it. I will never know what that young scout did, it anything.

 

Again, some scouters will ignore the "rules and policies" of BSA in regards to correct uniform, and that will never change. But there are a few circumstances where correctness must be adhered to when it is blantanly violated, whether it's by ignorance or desire.

 

[Beavah]

Yah, MV, I guess we all have our pet peeves, eh?

 

Can't say as I worry too much about a commish who occasionally indulges an Insignia Guide pet peeve, if it's done privately and courteously. Best to remember that walkin' up to a kid yeh don't know and correctin' him on some small uniformin' point is a bit like walkin' up to an adult yeh don't know at a business event and correctin' his grammar. Yeh might be right, but that ain't what you're likely to be remembered for.

 

So while pet peeves can be occasionally tolerated, for the other 99% of the time I expect a UC to be a courteous friend to a unit. Best ones are good observers and listeners, who then focus on the one or two small improvements that will help da unit the most to provide a better program, and that they're likely to be receptive to.

 

Don't reckon that square knot devices (from da Insignia Guide footnotes!) are likely to fit that category, eh? Or if they really are, then dat's a fantastic unit that really doesn't need a commissioner, eh?

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Eamonn]

" I am a UC and in the Commissioners handbook, we are obligated to do uniform inspections for the units we oversee."

I must have missed that part in the Handbook?

My thinking was that Commissioners were invited to do these inspections?

I know in the time I spent serving as a Commissioner these inspections were rarely done, in fact I can't remember ever doing one or have a UC report having done one.

This of course might be because when I was District Commissioner I never pushed it?

Back when I was Council Training Chair. I did have people come up to me and request that we (The Council) needed to present certain trainings (I think at that time there was something for Den Leader Coach?)Which they needed in order to complete the requirements for some knot. To make them happy we offered the needed training as part of Pow-Wow.

These people had made getting this knot a goal.

In my book that's fine and dandy. Them wanting to get it, in no way made them any less of a Scouter than the people who didn't have the goal or any more of a Scouter than those who don't care about the knots and things. As Training Chair, I went out of my way to encourage people to take training's and earn the knots that they were entitled to wear. I used the knots as the carrot!

As I have posted before I have one shirt where one knot is on upside down! To date only one person has said anything!

Unkind as it might be this person is an old time Commissioner, who I nicknamed Pockets. I gave him the nickname because I seen him as being as useful as pockets in your underwear! Strange thing is that this fellow was the only person who was upset when I said that we didn't need to wear uniforms for our monthly Commissioner's Meeting.

 

As I read this thread I keep singing to myself the song from the old TV western Branded, with Chuck Connors. Each episode began with McCord (Chuck Connors) being dishonorably discharged from the service, his stripes and brass buttons removed and his sword broken in two. This made for good TV, but I hope we never reach this sort of thing in Scouting.

Correct and proper uniforming is in the hands of the person wearing the uniform, some will wear it with gravy stains, some will wear the red wool jacket covered with the patch from every Camporee or event they have ever attended, some will wear every knot that is out there and some will do their best to wear it as it should be worn. - Even if one knot is upside down!

Eamonn.

 

 

 

[Gold Winger]

The problem with your analogy is that McCord wasn't drummed out of the service for wearing his uniform badly.

 

What I don't understand is how people can have so little pride in their appearance that they'll go out in public in a threadbare uniform with patches in the wrong places. Unless I'm in the middle of working on my car, I want to look decent when I go out in public.

 

We don't need the uniform police but someone should be around to say, "Dude, you don't wear your Scoutmaster patch on the left pocket."

[Eamonn]

"The problem with your analogy is that McCord wasn't drummed out of the service for wearing his uniform badly."

You are of course right.

However that wasn't the point I was trying to make.

I really don't see anyone in our organization ever removing the patches from someone else's uniform as was shown in the TV show.

Re: "We don't need the uniform police but someone should be around to say, "Dude, you don't wear your Scoutmaster patch on the left pocket."

Each and everyone of us who chooses to serve does so on our honor. While it's OK to make someone aware that the patch is on the wrong pocket, no one has the right or the authority to tell the person to move it.

As the volunteer organization that we are, giving that sort of authority would involve some sort of a hierarchy system. Which I'm sure many think would be a good thing and is needed, I however think it would harm the organization and be a turn off for new volunteers.

Eamonn.

[Oak Tree]

MVScouter,

 

I certainly wouldn't worry about what Andy says - I've observed his factual answers to be frequently wrong, and his opinions to be to be stated arrogantly as fact.

 

I do think it's a tough thing, though, to correct other people's uniforms. I have a Scout in my unit who wears two religious knots, and it bugs me, too. I've even had another Scout complain to me about it. We did hold a uniform inspection where I thought I could naturally mention it to him, but he was absent that day. It's funny - of all the uniforming errors in the troop, this is the one that grates on me the most, too - I guess I'm like you in that regard.

 

While Eamonn is of course right that no one has the authority to tell someone else to fix their uniform, I think people are more likely to wear their uniform correctly if they know that other people notice how their uniform looks, and if they are occasionally reminded what the correct uniform is. I've found that I can do this fairly inoffensively at a unit uniform inspection. The adults will usually go along with the idea of being inspected as a fun comparison with the Scouts. We haven't done it often - maybe once every year or two - but it's one way to do a level-set.

[MVScouter]

Eamonn,

 

If you have the Commissioner Fieldbook, go to page 19, "Uniform Inspections." Mine is 5 years old so I don't know if this section has been changed. It states in the 1st paragraph:

 

"You are a uniformed offical of a uniformed organization. It is important that you wear yours correctly to set an example for your units. Pack inspections are held in the fall. Troop inspections are held in spring and fall. Occasionally you will be asked to inspect the unit."

 

You have much more experience than I do so what is your take on this?

I have only done one inspection at the troop level in 5 years. I did not do the inspection, but merely guided the SPL to do it. When he missed something, I would ask him about it. I felt it was warranted because many young scouts just didn't know where certain badges should be worn. That was about 3 years ago. Personally, it would not hurt to do it again.

 

Oak Tree: I agree with your post. I just thought of something else.

My son went to the 2005 National Jamboree. I went as staff. He was given a few Jamboree patches that were required to be on his uniform. All other isignia had to be correct and in the proper place. If something was not right, the Scoutmaster made the scout correct it. No arguements!

 

There is a double standard in place in very special situations. Our national commissioner, Don Blecher spoke at a gathering of commissioners in Minneapolis 2 summers ago. He was wearing a knot that was red with a silver background. I did not have the opportunity to ask him what is was so I sent an e-mail to George Crowl, the Boy Scout Awards expert to see if he knew. He didn't have a clue and he's seen hundreds. Well, the lastest picture of Don shows him in his uniform and that knot is now been removed. Whatever it was, it was not offical.

 

Yes, this is volunteerism, not the military. But it calls into question the BSA policies, strictly adhered to by professionals and volunteers like Don Belcher, and other scouters who may regard these uniform policies with apathy and indifference.

[MVScouter]

Opps. I made a error. Our National Commissioner is Don Belcher.

 

Anyone who is a commissioner can get his quarterly podcasts off of the National website. Just go to Commissioners and you will find it. His commentary's can be downloaded to your Ipod.

 

 

[Gold Winger]

Uniform inspections are a joke, at least the ones that I've seen. The SM reminds EVERYONE that the uniform inspection is coming up and asks that they make sure that everything is on their uniform correctly and that their uniform is clean.

 

The boys show up looking like Contras and everyone passes, no matter how disreputable their uniform is. Why? We don't want them to feel bad. Boo-hoo!

 

We don't want to punish the child because mom wouldn't sew the patches on right. Boo hoo! What happened to the idea that the boy is responsible for his own uniform?

 

Maybe I'm strange but when I was a Cub Scout, I gave my mother the Wolf book and stood next to her to make sure that EVERY patch was exactly where it belonged. That was my uniform, not my mother's. Similarly, it was my job to make sure that my uniform was clean and ironed for the meeting.

 

Now, the boys don't seem to care and if mom puts something on incorrectly, she's not going to move it because "it's too much trouble."

 

I guess it is all part of the trend of "we can't expect it from kids" so parents have to scrutinize homework, make sure that kids get to baseball practice and games, and even submit their college applications.

 

opps, starting to rant.

 

 

[Beavah]

Our national commissioner, Don Belcher spoke at a gathering of commissioners in Minneapolis 2 summers ago. He was wearing a knot that was red with a silver background... Whatever it was, it was not official.

 

Yah, red square knot on white twill (sometimes looks silverish) is a Heroism Award. It is official.

 

I reckon Don didn't remove it from his uniform because it was not allowed. Rather, followin' guidelines, he wears a uniform shirt which is clean and uncluttered, limitin' it to 5 knots corresponding to wearin' 5 medals (in which he is pictured in a recent Scouting Magazine). I believe he's wearin' his Silver Critters, a James E. West, and a (Distinguished) Eagle Scout, though some of you may have better eyes All are awards related to his current role in da organization, as is right and proper.

 

I assure you, Don has earned more knots than the 5 he's wearin', and takin' off one to make room for his Silver Buffalo doesn't mean it was an unofficial knot .

 

Beavah

 

[kraut-60]

The troop I serve has uniform inspections held after the potluck fellowship and before the Court of Honor. This tradition came about when the then serving SPL suggested it at PLC and the PLC approved it. The Scouts feel it is one of the times they want to look their best.

 

The SPL will form the troop for assembly by patrols. He (the SPL) will then invite a uniformed adult leader from the troop or a visiting Scouter to inspect the patrols along with the PL and the SPL. The same Scouter is never chose twice (we have 3 CoHs per year).

 

By having the inspection with family and friends and guests present, the boys feel they are showing their folks how proud they are to belong to their patrol as well as the troop and the pride shows as all Scouts have complete uniforms. We do not require uniforms in our troop, but we encourage them....and the adult leaders wear complete uniforms to set the example....no scout is ever chastised for not wearing his uniform, in fact complete uniforms are rare in normal meetings but when the PLC prescribes them, the boys wear them.