Square Knots...Are you game? (Just for fun)

[Col. Flagg]

And unfortunately I've ran into some "good old boys" networks where if you don't wear knots, you are considered to not know anything. Similar to those folks who think if you don't wear beads, you don't know squat.

 

If that's what they think they aren't folks I want to know anyway. I have found the more knots or beads the less they actually know...but they THINK they know a great deal.

Edited February 22, 2017 by Col. Flagg

[Eagle94-A1]

If that's what they think they aren't folks I want to know anyway. I have found the more knots or beads the less they actually know...but they THINK they know a great deal.

 

Yes, it was interesting. And I admit I was misguided at the time. I had problems with folks dealing with "a Scout" as they kept calling me as a young Scouter under 24. I went after the Scouter's Training Award with a passion thinking it would shut them up and listen to me. Didn't work.

 

Thankfully the next group of Scouters I worked with were a lot better. While initially skeptical of a brand new, just out of college DE, they gave me a chance and let my actions speak.

[Stosh]

This guy's got more than two rows!!!

 

Edited February 23, 2017 by Stosh

[The Latin Scot]

By my beard, how dare he? Doesn't he know better?!?

 

 

Except, of course, that those aren't square knots, that's not a BSA Scout uniform, and he is actually following correct uniform procedure for his day and that organization, which was of course the British Royal Army, of which he was an actual general, AND the fact that he is Lieutenant General Robert Stephenson Smyth Baden-Powell, 1st Baron Baden-Powell himself, and that man can do WHATEVER HE WANTS AS FAR AS I'M CONCERNED. When a Scouter reaches that level of accomplishment, maybe they can wear more than three rows too, haha.

 

I did have a good laugh though of course, thanks Stosh! Ha ha ha

[Gwaihir]

By my beard, how dare he? Doesn't he know better?!?

 

 

Except, of course, that those aren't square knots, that's not a BSA Scout uniform, and he is actually following correct uniform procedure for his day and that organization, which was of course the British Royal Army, of which he was an actual general, AND the fact that he is Lieutenant General Robert Stephenson Smyth Baden-Powell, 1st Baron Baden-Powell himself, and that man can do WHATEVER HE WANTS AS FAR AS I'M CONCERNED. When a Scouter reaches that level of accomplishment, maybe they can wear more than three rows too, haha.

 

I did have a good laugh though of course, thanks Stosh! Ha ha ha

 

So then this photo of the same guy is ok?  

 

 

though admittedly, he retired a Lt. Colonel, not a Lt. General. Still tho, impressive military career. 

Edited February 23, 2017 by Gwaihir

[Col. Flagg]

So then this photo of the same guy is ok?  

 

 

though admittedly, he retired a Lt. Colonel, not a Lt. General. Still tho, impressive military career. 

 

Not bad. Great service. They do tend to give more ribbons now than then did 40-50 years ago. Most officers at that grade will be similarly adorned.

 

Any yes, that's his military uniform where you wear your service ribbons. Though even there, at some point you have to pick what you want to wear if they won't fit correctly on your uniform.

[The Latin Scot]

Indeed; this is a case of apples and oranges. On a military uniform, you wear whatever awards you have earned in keeping with military regulations and standards. But when you wear the Boy Scout uniform, again, you wear it in keeping with BSA regulations and standards. If the military allows him to wear all those ribbons on his jacket, that's fine - I have no knowledge of how their awards are to be worn, so I am in no position to say anything. But I do know that earning dozens of military honors has no bearing on how one wears the BSA uniform.

 

Just because your branch of the U.S. Military allows you to wear ribbons up to your neck doesn't mean you can do the same on the Boy Scout uniform. We are not a military organization; we have our own policies on uniform wear, and they should be followed. You would hope an officer as decorated as he would understand the principles of obedience and decorum, which weigh heavily on wearing the uniform correctly. Clearly Mike Walton has earned many awards; all the more power to him. But just what exactly are we trying to communicate when we wear all of those awards at once? Even as "conversation starters," about what, pray-tell, is the conversation supposed to be? How many honors you've received? I would find such a conversation boring and self-serving in the extreme. Is there any reason to wear awards that exceed BSA policy that isn't in some way showing off?

 

Again, I am speaking of BSA policy only. I have no opinions on military regulation since I am not a part of the armed forces and maintain nothing but a citizen's firm respect for their role and organization. It is not my place to scrutinize their uniform codes; I am speaking purely of the Boy Scouts of America and the official instruction we receive from National.

Edited February 23, 2017 by The Latin Scot

[Gwaihir]

then by that mentality, the BSA has no regulation, or standard when it comes to number of square knots.  they have recommendations.  recommendations are not hard and fast.  

[Stosh]

Cooking stoves get really hot, I recommend you not touch them. 

[Gwaihir]

Cooking stoves get really hot, I recommend you not touch them. 

 

which is a pretty good recommendation.  

[jr56]

Odd that if wearing x number of knots is so horrible, why the BSA is always creating new ones?

True, 9 is a recommendation, nothing more.

[Col. Flagg]

Odd that if wearing x number of knots is so horrible, why the BSA is always creating new ones?

True, 9 is a recommendation, nothing more.

 

They create new knots to cater/address certain training, service, activity or other program-related activities in Scouting. The insignia guide points out that the wearer has the discretion to pick which ones they want to wear.

 

I wear the three most important to me, and which I think will have the most impact on my Scouts. One my uniform that I wear for COHs I wear six, the other three are the second three most important to me and reflect my level of training. The other nine stay on my desk in my box that collects Scout patches.

[Eagle94-A1]

I find it funny that we are commenting on a recommendation to limit knots to 9, when that number has been non-existant, them limited (12), then gone up(15), and now down again to 9, and now we are told that adults can wear patrol emblems on their uniforms because "the BSA’s official stance is it doesn’t say you can do it … but it doesn’t say you can’t," BUT the Guide to Awards and Insignia states patrol emblems are for "Boy Scout", not "Boy Scout and Boy Scout Leader."

 

If national can not be consistent, how can us volunteers be?

[The Latin Scot]

Easy! By keeping up to date with the current standard, and then following it. At the present, we are told no more than three rows. So we keep no more than three rows until they say otherwise, then if they do alter their stance, we change accordingly. Simple!

 

Honestly, they aren't changing this policy every other week; and these 'back and forth changes' people claim to have been so confused about have been over the course of many years. This isn't hard to keep up with! It really isn't a big deal if every few years we have to take a few off, or put a few on - is it? I just don't get the problem I guess. Whatever is current, well, do that. Then if they change, a few minutes of sewing or cutting is all it takes to keep up to standard. The whole point is that it shouldn't be a big deal to make a few minuscule alterations if it means being properly uniformed. 

 

Cooking stoves get really hot, I recommend you not touch them. 

 

This made my day Stosh; I nearly laughed myself out of my chair. But it is of course absolutely true; a recommendation is not a licence to do whatever you want; it's recommended because there is a legitimate reason for it. I would never be so flippant as to disregard counsel just because 'it's only a recommendation.'

Edited February 24, 2017 by The Latin Scot

[Eagle94-A1]

Easy! By keeping up to date with the current standard, and then following it. At the present, we are told no more than three rows. So we keep no more than three rows until they say otherwise, then if they do alter their stance, we change accordingly. Simple!

 

Honestly, they aren't changing this policy every other week; and these 'back and forth changes' people claim to have been so confused about have been over the course of many years. This isn't hard to keep up with! It really isn't a big deal if every few years we have to take a few off, or put a few on - is it? I just don't get the problem I guess. Whatever is current, well, do that. Then if they change, a few minutes of sewing or cutting is all it takes to keep up to standard. The whole point is that it shouldn't be a big deal to make a few minuscule alterations if it means being properly uniformed. 

 

 

 

For some folks not so easy.  I mentioned trying to remove regional insignia from my time as a DE. Guess what, when I cut off the insignia, a very noticeable outline was visible. It went back on.

 

Same thing happened when I went to work with national supply. My boss wanted me to remove jambo insignia that I had on. When I cut off the patch, again it was extremely noticeable that the insignia was one there. Thankfully she listened to me, and asked her boss if jamboree insignia was authorized, and he said yes.

 

Regarding national changing uniform regulations, do you remember the screw up when the Centennial uniform came out? That was a fiasco because no one had a clue as to what was going on as there was no insignia guide and they changed the guidelines 4 times in a 9 month period for Webelos and Cub Scout leaders. First we went the way of the Boy Scouts with green on tan numbers and green on tan trained strip.Then it went to red on tan numbers (pics of those are on the net somewhere, but they were never issued) with green on tan trained strip, Then it went white on red numbers and old red on tan trained strip that didn't fit on the "smokes pocket". Then it went back to all green. There was so many conflicting guidelines coming out of national, I actually called my old boss in supply to try and get the official answers. When I got the "official" answer from national supply, I bought the uniform to those specifications. Guess what changed a month after I bought a new uniform, with all new insignia? You got it, I had to bet all new numbers and trained strip. Grant you it may seem minor, but that was money I could have used, and time sewing I could have done something else. And then a year or two later, they change guidelines again. ANY color trained strip can be worn by any trained individual, it was no longer color specific.

 

See where some folks here can get frustrated? And now they are saying adults can wear patrol emblems? Guess what happens if they change back to the policy of no patrol patches for adults, except during wood badge.

 

Then you get into the question of Vintage uniforms. Did you know at one time adults could wear military ribbons with their Scout uniform? We had one long time Scouter with a vintage uniform from that era. Guess what he wore with it?

 

I admit I get a little heated on this topic. In this neck of the woods, uniform inspections are part of the Webelorees and camporees as an event. In the past the top patrol or den has been determined by uniform inspection scores. And I've had to defend Cubs and Boy Scouts from overzealous uniform inspectors because the Scout bought or was handed down a uniform with one set of insignia THAT WAS CURRENT WHEN IT WAS ORIGINALLY PURCHASED ( emphasis, not shouting at ya ) but national has since changed the insignia. And with some of these Scouts, having a uniform IS a big deal. That is when I I go into "Vintage Uniforms," which are still authorized for wear. heck somewhere around the office is a file with all the variations of the Centennial Uniform From August 2008 when the uniform first came out, until May 2009 when a Insignia Guide came out. Yes I had to bust the folder out a few times to help some Scouts out. I point out to the inspector the Scout is in a Vintage 2008-2009 uniform.

Edited February 24, 2017 by Eagle94-A1