Web version of "Insignia Guide" on national BSA website

[fgoodwin]

Insignia Guide

 

http://www.scouting.org/pubs/33066/

 

The Boy Scouts of America has always been a uniformed body. Its uniforms help to create a sense of belonging. They symbolize character development, citizenship training, and personal fitness. Wearing a uniform gives youth and adult members a sense of identification and commitment.

 

This insignia guide presents detailed information to enable our members to wear the correct complete uniform on all suitable occasions.

[Beavah]

About time they posted that on-line rather than tryin' to get $5 bucks for it everywhere.

 

Glad to see da new trend of offerin' up-to-date guidebooks and other printed materials electronically.

 

B

 

[John-in-KC]

Agree with Beavah!!! There are materials which legitimately belong for sale, but a lot of the program Scouting offers belongs accessible to unit serving Scouters!

[Gold Winger]

It's very 21st century to have it electronically but you can't take the computer into the john with you :-)

 

Also it is far easier to pull the book out of your briefcase to show that Scouter where his position patch goes than digging out your notebook computer, turning on and then surfing to www.scouting.org.

 

Electronic books may be a useful aid but theyll never fully replace the printed versins.

[OldGreyEagle]

The trouble with having information right on hand of course is that then it has to be used. So, when you read the following from the Insignia Guide: Excerpts From the Rules and Regulations section and see that under the "Protection of Uniform" section:

 

No alteration of, or additions to, the official uniforms, as described in the official publications, or the rules and regulations covering the wearing of the uniform and the proper combinations thereof on official occasions, may be authorized by any Scouting official or local council or any local executive board or committee, except the Executive Board of the Boy Scouts of America after consideration by the Program Group Committee.

 

Then you have to wonder about troops or packs that say in this unit, the class A uniform is the shirt only, pants arent required. Now, they have the information that says they can't do that. Will they follow it? About as well as those who want to keep attendance in the scout spirit requirements is my guess.

 

[Beavah]

No alteration of, or additions to, the official uniforms, as described in the official publications, or the rules and regulations covering the wearing of the uniform and the proper combinations thereof on official occasions, may be authorized by any Scouting official or local council or any local executive board or committee, except the Executive Board of the Boy Scouts of America after consideration by the Program Group Committee.

 

Yah, OGE, then yeh have to understand what it means . That is to say, how it is properly interpreted.

 

BSA Supply division makes minor changes to da uniform all the time without takin' it to the National Executive Board. By your logic, that's breakin' the rules. AFAIK, Switchback Pants were one of those "non-approved" changes (a change in material, not in color or look/function). Insignia guide changes every year or two, also without da approval of the National Executive Board. So followin' the Insignia Guide, by your logic, is breakin' the rules.

 

It's not the Insignia Guide which spells out the rules and regulations that the paragraph you quote is talkin' about. Da paragraph refers to the major uniform features adopted by the National Exec. Board. That's a different thing, eh? It's primarily concerned with usin' BSA insignia and uniformin' in public performances and such.

 

Just like da YP and reportin' stuff, quotin' things without understandin' the real issues and background makes for good 1-hour training, but not good understanding or judgment when dealin' with real issues.

 

Beavah

 

[OldGreyEagle]

So, I want to be sure I understand my reprimand, it is ok to have a troop say that it's Class A (field uniform) is the shirt only and they are in compliance with the rules, is that right?

[Beavah]

Yah, sorry, OGE. Didn't mean it to be a "reprimand" but the edit feature ain't workin' anymore so I couldn't fix some of that language.

 

I'm not sure I understand your question, though. "Class A" is of course meaningless if we're talkin' being official.

 

If someone were to say that the BSA Boy Scout uniform consists of only the tan shirt, that would be incorrect.

 

If a troop were to decide that's all they want their kids to wear to a meeting, that's their call, eh? We can argue about whether or not it's a good call.

 

If a troop were to be asked by National to perform an official public function as representatives of the BSA, then they should be wearin' the tan shirt and the green pants and look da part, eh? Same with BSA camp staff and other employees. They should not be wearin' a "protest patch" or some other organization's award in an "off" way, but nobody would quibble about minor deviations or patch misplacements. And nobody would quibble about council-level adjustments (like everyone at camp wearin' Venturing green for consistency in ID'ing staff, or wearin' a special camp staff patch or such).

 

National's interest in da R&R about uniform is to maintain proper control of their trademarked items and "look", and ensuring that it isn't abused in ways that misrepresent the organization. Nobody gives a hoot about the small stuff.

 

Ever played "find da uniform violations" in National's official documents? Remember the kid in a green shirt with red tabs on the front page of the website for months? They sure don't sweat the small stuff.

 

We're not the military. Uniformin' isn't a regulatory thing. It's a program piece in a kids' program. A unit that has a military ethic as a goal/mission can choose to be military-style regulatory about uniforms for their unit. Great for them, if it works. But that's their own program choice and not really what da BSA is about.

 

Beavah

 

 

[FScouter]

"Yah, OGE, then yeh have to understand what it means . That is to say, how it is properly interpreted."

 

Well, it sure is comforting to know that we can safely ingore what it SAYS. Just hop on an internet discussion forum and there will be someone there to tell us what it really MEANS.

 

Better yet, why not just tell people to ignore anything they disagree with and do their own thing? Isn't that pretty much the Beavah philosophy?

[OldGreyEagle]

This just happened in the COuncil I serve.

 

A few weeks back at the Council Advancement Committee meeting there was a bit of a flurry. Seems the Advancement Chair of one of the Districts had instituted a policy of requiring the complete field uniform when a scout presented for an Eagle Board of Review. The reason for this was because a few troops in his district have decreed that for their troops the complete uniform consists of the hirt only. The District guy wanted to establish that a scout had to be in full field uniform. I couldnt beleive it myself, as I thought I knwe the guy. Well, I said that you couldnt require a boy scout uniform for an Eagle Board of Review as there was no requirement that any member of the BSA have a uniform, but if the scout presented without the uniform, it certainly would be a topic of discussion and then decision on the boards part based on the scouts answer. Having the scout say, in my troop we only wear the shirt because Mr Greyeagle says thats fine is not a reason to deny the scout Eagle if in the Boards opinion all the requirements are met. Troops can wear anything they like. Who is the poster who says they use the Green Venturing/Explorer shirt for their older scouts in a Troop? Am I going to bust a cranial artery worrying about it? Nope.

 

To many other things to worry about

[Beavah]

Well, it sure is comforting to know that we can safely ingore what it SAYS.

 

Not at all. What it says is just fine. Yeh just have to read it in context. Remember that what OGE quoted is an excerpt from R&R reprinted in the Insignia Guide. So it's not in context.

 

Second is that just because it's written down doesn't mean the intent of the writin' is perfectly clear to someone else. Like most of my posts, eh? That's why we do training in scouting, because yeh can't get everything just from readin'. You gotta see things in action and discuss meaning and intent. Training and discussion are important.

 

Isn't that pretty much the Beavah philosophy?

 

Da "Beavah Philosophy??!" :) Sounds like I should be makin' T-shirts.

 

But yeh got it wrong. It's more like

 

1) Don't be content with fulfilling requirements or training. Don't stop at answers. Seek understanding.

2) Not everything is of equal importance. Know the difference between what's important and what ain't. (A toy gun ain't the same thing as a firearm....)

3) Just because a guy has too much sugar in his diet doesn't mean he's also smokin' crack and shootin' heroin. Forgive people their small foibles.

4) The world is complex, and subtle. Be skeptical of simple answers, they usually mean da guy givin' you the answer doesn't know what he's talkin' about. Even me!

5) When a parent asks a question, answer with what a good parent should do in that circumstance, not what the SM should have done. Save that for when da SM asks the question .

 

and...

 

6) Right and Wrong is decided by God Alone. Don't try to do His job unless you have His qualifications.

 

Beavah

 

[ScoutNut]

"BSA Supply division makes minor changes to da uniform all the time without takin' it to the National Executive Board." "AFAIK, Switchback Pants were one of those "non-approved" changes (a change in material, not in color or look/function). Insignia guide changes every year or two, also without da approval of the National Executive Board."

 

OK, I'm confused and maybe I've missed something along the way. Beavah, from your profile you are a Volunteer Scouter at the District/Council level. Has that changed? Are you by any chance now on the National Executive Board? Do you work for the BSA Supply Division? Do you work for the National BSA office in some capacity that has to do with the uniform (or anything else)?

 

How can you possibly state that the National Executive Board had/has no approval or input over either the Insignia Guide or the new Switchback pants (and I will assume you include the Cub version, S2, as well)?

 

Please state your source for this comment.

 

 

 

[Gold Winger]

" Switchback Pants were one of those "non-approved" changes (a change in material, not in color or look/function)"

 

They definately are a different color. Tehy look different. They function differently too.

[BrentAllen]

"It's not the Insignia Guide which spells out the rules and regulations that the paragraph you quote is talkin' about. Da paragraph refers to the major uniform features adopted by the National Exec. Board. That's a different thing, eh?"

 

So, Beavah, if that paragraph isn't addressed to us volunteer Scouters, then why is it included in the Insignia Guide? You say your interpretation is due to context, but I say the context is the fact that it is included in the Insignia Guide. You say policy isn't the same as Rules and Regulations. I argue the policy is important enough that the organization produces a very detailed Insignia Guide, encourages inspections and defines the official uniform on page 12 of the Boy Scout Handbook. I can't find any language that says Scouts are authorized to wear any other pants as part of the uniform. Please show me where anything other than the official uniform or activity uniform is either described or authorized.

 

Insignia Guide, page 1:

The Rules and Regulations and policy. The following pages contain our uniform policy as taken from the Rules and Regulations of the BSA. The chapters contain applications of the regulations to each program area. Neither the Rules and Regulations of the BSA, the policy, nor the program applications may be added to or changed in any way unless approved by the National Executive Board of the BSA through its Program Group Committee.