just a little uniform rant

[jr56]

If the Dens are only meeting once a month, you are not giving enough of the scouting program to make it interesting for the boys.

 

[erickelly65]

The stance on Camo comes from the policy below. One could argue that, in this day and age of attire, Camo is not universally considered para-military. Having said that, it has been my experience that it is generally considered bad-form to wear camo in Scouting circles. Personally, I have bigger fish to fry.

 

According to the Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America (BSA No. 57-492), under "Insignia, Uniforms, and Badges," Clause 4(b) states: "Imitation of United States Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps uniforms is prohibited, in accordance with the provisions of the organization's Charter."

[Gold Winger]

I'll go with Roy Williams proclamation as being a clearer. "No military or hunting." Cammies are military and they are hunting related.

 

Either way, cammies are a no no.

[ElyriaLeader]

As far as the uniforms go...our pack only asks for the boys to wear the shirts w/necker, They recieve the necker and handbook at the advancement ceremony (parents pay for the handbook),the adult leadership wears full uniforms. As for the meetings....I guess I'm one of the "CRAZIES", my boys meet weekly (just like the troops they will be going to) this includes the pack meeting, we have a planned activity weekend every third month, and the boys attend resident camp in the summer (well...9 out of 10 did). The boys are having fun and advancing, I have the parents support because I have told them from the start that I want the boys to try and support a similar schedule to the one they will have at the troop level so that they won't cross over and go "whoah....thats a lot of stuff!!" I feel it will make the transition easier for the boys...still doing similar things...just more boy led leadership than cubs.

I will now step down from my rather lofty soapbox and open the floor to the next speaker.

[BrentAllen]

"This is what separates the crazies from the praticals... "

 

No, this is what separates the Scouts from the psuedo-Scouts. If you are only meeting once a month, why even bother? My guess is these leaders never go to any training, and don't even own a copy of the Cub Scout Leader Book.

 

When I became Cubmaster, we started requiring the boys to wear the complete, correct uniform - pants, socks, neckerchiefs. It was horrible! Our Pack went from 70 boys to 140 in just 3 years! I'm sure they are scarred for life!

[FScouter]

"As far as the uniforms go...our pack only asks for the boys to wear the shirts w/necker"

 

Rather than redefining the uniform or granting permission to wear less than the uniform, why not let them know what the uniform IS, and remain silent if they choose to wear only part of it.

[ElyriaLeader]

We do show the boys what the full and proper uniform is,some of the boys do wear the entire uniform, but some of the families have a hard time even getting the shirt. While I would love to have the boys all wear a full uniform ( I remember going to Sears with my mother to get scout uniforms as a child, including the later "beret" as a boy scout) I also know the financial realities these days that would cause me to lose some fine scouts.

[Gunny2862]

Sorry just feel compelled... re: ""No military or hunting." Cammies are military and they are hunting related." and "Either way, cammies are a no no."

 

So when Scouts go into the woods they need to wear solid Blaze orange(oops, sorry hunting related), or Hot pink, Insane shades of red, maybe Canary Yellow to catch everyones eye and detract from the nature experience for anyone they meet? Because surely you aren't saying that the Field shirt is in reality a Field shirt? Chortle. Although I'm still liking the switchbacks for trails that aren't "raw".

 

I thought part of LNT was also teaching the wearing of clothing that "blended in" so as to disrupt the natural movements of wilderness animals as little as possible and not to detract from the "nature experience" for our fellow travelers.

 

I would "qualified" "never"(never is a big word, as I keep telling my son) wear camouflage to a Troop meeting, Service event, Flag Ceremony; especially not with parts of the BSA uniform. However, If we are in the Woods or doing manual labor, I am also not likely to avoid subdued colors and even patterned clothing. And if I happen to be going thru an extremely brushy, thorny area. Well, my excess military uniforms that I PAID for(in more ways then just cash) just may be at risk of dying a useful death. And don't even consider saying that B-P wouldn't say the same. Look at his original uniform in it's context.

 

And let's examine the Movement of Scouting as long as we are there. What kind of Scouting do you think B-P was proposing - why the wood craft and memory games, why map reading and making, why being observant and physically fit? I'm getting really tired of this no military aspects in Scouting garbage.

 

Not that we are training little soldiers - we are not. We are teaching character by inculcating them a little bit at a time thru the Aims and Methods of Scouting, to include uniforming. I get it. But the anti-military theme is getting old. Rant ends. Thanks.

[erickelly65]

BrentAllen

 

With your units full uniform emphasis, did you have any situations with families struggling to buy uniforms (money issues)? How did you handle this?

My unit, and our District in general, serves a large number of disadvantaged youth and uniform costs are an ongoing issue.

 

I am not a member of the "uniform police" by any stretch but, being an old school scouter, would rather seem more boys in uniform then less.

[BrentAllen]

Gunny,

Being that you served in the military, I can understand your point of view. Let me try to give you another.

 

Back when I shot competitive high power, the anti-gunners would claim that clubs holding high power matches were really militia groups, training radicals to take over the country. There wasn't a shred of truth in that claim. Still, we politely asked those competing not to wear camos, if possible. We didn't want to give the anti's any fuel for their propoganda.

 

Similarly, Scouting still faces charges from time to time that we are either a para-military group, or just a training and recruiting ground for the military. We politely ask Scouts and Scouters to avoid camo so we don't give our enemies something to talk about.

 

As for the military and Scouting, B-P said:

"Our aim is to make backwoodsmen of Scouts, not imitation soldiers."

 

"We have no military aim or practice in our Movement."

 

"Military training and discipline are exactly the opposite of what we inculcate in the Scout Movement."

 

From the very beginning, B-P had to fight charges from liberals that Scouting was just a program to prepare boys for the military. The original uniform was derived from the South African Constabulary, not the British military.

[Gunny2862]

Okay BrentAllen. Cooling off. It's okay, I wasn't really hot anyway. But would you please address para 2 and 3 of the post? I'd like to hear your thoughts.

 

Gold Winger, what about that sweet ALICE Belt, Suspenders and Butt pack you mentioned in another post, in another thread. It is military, and thus verboten correct? I want to hear this thought also.

[BrentAllen]

Gunny,

Sure, I'll try. First, let me thank you for serving our country. I have deep appreciation for those who serve our country, so don't let me last post let you think otherwise.

 

Blaze orange isn't just for hunting. Forest Rangers and others in the woods during hunting season wear it for safety. If I had Scouts in an area near hunters, I think it would be a good idea for them to wear some.

 

The uniform shirt is not a Field shirt, and the BSA does not use the term "Field Uniform." BSA calls it the "Official Uniform", as opposed to an "Activity Uniform." That being said, your comments about LNT are correct. The BSA has the Switchbacks (as you mentioned) and also a tan nylon/poly Action/Activity shirt, which meet the desires of LNT. As an aside, I really push these pants and shirts with our boys. They are very functional and meet several other goals I have - keep the unit looking somewhat uniformed when in the woods, and keep the boys from wearing cotton.

 

When we travel, we wear the Official Uniform, ideally with the Switchback pants and a Troop poly t-shirt underneath the uniform shirt. When we arrive, we shed the uniform shirts and throw on the tan Activity shirt. If we need the Official uniform shirts at camp, we pack and carry them. If not, we leave them in the vehicles. When we are ready to depart, we throw the uniform shirts back on for the trip home.

If the boys just take/wear the Switchbacks to camp, they don't have to change anything other than shirts to get into uniform. The parents are starting to see the simplicity of this plan, and it makes packing so much easier.

 

erickelly, we are in a fairly affluent area, so cost isn't a big problem. I'll let you in on a little secret. Councils (ours does, anyway) have financial aid programs that will help in providing uniforms to those who can't afford them. We have had those in need, and our Pack just picked up the cost, instead of going to Council.

[John-in-KC]

Gunny,

 

For YOU, who have the right to wear battle dress and digital Marine combat uniforms (I don't know the name for your newest pattern)... absolutely. Wear them in the back-country. It's a more honorable path to their retirement than dropping them in the trunk for years on end.

 

For your YOUTH, yes, Cabela's or Bass Pro (gotta give credit where credit is due for your closest outfitter ) may be a suitable answer. OTOH, I've seen a lot of 100% cotton sweat shirts, meant for in-town wear, overprinted with someone's patented cammy. The material, as you well know, has to match the intended purpose.

 

In some environments, HECK YES, wear a blazer. We both know hunting season is on in our neck of the woods. That trail the Eagle Patrol is hiking on may have someone with a TRP from a stand 300 yards away, whether he's supposed to or not (Sad side story, I was campmastering at Camp Runamuck 3 weekends ago; the game wardens were busy folk going after spotlight hunters).

 

As far as ALICE, its successor gear, and older LBE go? It's rugged, sure as anything! It also weighs a lot. I can probably pack another days' rations for the tare weight of a medium ALICE pack on a frame. I can pack a tent and two days rations for the weight of the current GI fartsack. That said, don't make me give up my Gore-Tex parka or may rain top!

[Slouchhat]

"From the very beginning, B-P had to fight charges from liberals that Scouting was just a program to prepare boys for the military. The original uniform was derived from the South African Constabulary, not the British military."

 

So why is it that we don't all wear the BSAC uniform anymore?

What's wrong with khaki and a campaign hat?

This is the uniform associated all over the world with the scouts. It may look a bit old-timish, but it is for all intents and purposes a practical uniform.

Our new troop will be an all-khaki troop soon.

 

In my country the scouts try hardest not to look like they were wearing a uniform. Hell, they even avoid the term at all cost, calling it a "Kluft" or "Tracht", but never a uniform. They wear leather breeches and shirts untucked or checkered shirts and knickerbockers so it doesn't even resemble a uniform. All that because there are still people who try to see parallels to the Hitler Youth, which, of course, it utter BS.

 

What's wrong with wearing a smart uniform which gives the kids some pride in who they are. It doesn't need to be cammies, plain OD, coyote tan or khaki looks smart and can be obtained quite cheaply.

 

To me the system of giving every sub-group another specific dress doesn't sound like a clever way when knowing how fast kids outgrow their clothes. Mine sure do. Put everybody in the same uniform, give them different scarves and there you are. Makes building up a clothing pool a lot easier, too.

 

best regards,

Volker

 

[OldGreyEagle]

!!perk!!

 

Leather Breeches?

 

!!perk!!

 

Slouchhat, just who supplies you with those?(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)