Class "A" Question

[PeteM]

What is your stand on what comprises a Class "A" uniform?

 

If a Scout decides to wear 'almost' Class "A", except for his neckerchief, and uses his Scout bolo tie instead, would he be considered in Class "A"?

 

We have a couple of Scouts in my troop that like to "push the envelope" whenever thay can, and NOT wear their neckerchief's, but say that since their bolo's are official scout issue, they can use it instead.

 

What do you think?

[epalmer84]

Pendatic mode: The BSA discourages the military term of "class A" and encourages "official Boy Scout uniform".

http://www.scoutingmagazine.org/issues/0605/d-lett.html

 

Per the uniform inspection sheet:

 

The troop/team may vote to wear a neckerchief, bolo tie, or no neckwear.

http://www.scouting.org/forms/34283.pdf

 

I don't have my Insignia Guide at hand, but I'm sure it states that all unit members wear the same neckwear. This would be in the first few pages of the guide.

 

I think your real problem here is that "envelope pushing". This should be addressed at the PLC level.

 

BTW- the 2007 inspection sheet adds some options for headgear, neckwear, belts and the like, but none for pants.

 

Ed

[emb021]

There is no official definition of Class A, Class B, etc.

 

When I was first introduced to the terms when I went to the 81 Jamboree (and have seen the terms used widely in Florida), this is my understanding of what consitutes them.

 

Class A:

*scout shirt (short sleeve is pretty much all you see in FL)

*scout pants or shorts

*scout belt (web or scouting-related leather)

*scout socks (only important if wearing shorts)

Optional: scout hat, jacket, neckerchief, bolo tie, etc.

 

Class B:

*scout t-shirt (or plain t-shirt)

*scout shorts (never long pants)

*scout belt

*scout socks

Optional- scout hat

 

Switching from Class A to B was easy. Especially at OA events, Jambo, etc. We would wear a scout t-shirt under our scout shirts. Take off the scout shirt when not needed (too hot and this helped keep it clean until we really needed it), and we were in Class B.

 

As these shirts had collars, you could wear a neckerchief or bolo tie. In my troop as a youth, we adopted an informal rule to wear bolo ties instead of neckerchiefs.

 

My suggestion. Its the troop's rules (not National) on wearing neckerchiefs or not. If the troop determines that wearing the neckerchief is part of THEIR definition of 'class A', so be it. Its their decision. If the troop feels it can be either neckerchief OR bolo tie to be class A, again, its the troops decision. Its not these boys by themselves.

 

[PeteM]

>>>> Pendatic mode: The BSA discourages the military term of "class A" and encourages "official Boy Scout uniform".

[Crew21_Adv]

Pete,

 

Greetings!

 

I concur with Ed "epalmer". Neckerchiefs, bolos, or no neckerchiefs, it is the decision of the PLC. (as a leader, it probably should be brought up only once a year. Probably best during the annual planning conference, if the troop schedules a visiting Commissioner to conduct an inspection).

 

It would be nice for the top uniformed Scouts earn a recognition. If it is a patch, pizza, ice cream sundae, whatever, but they should be recognized for complying with the PLC's uniform regulations.

 

 

Fellow Scouters,

 

The terms Class A and Class B are so well engrained. For years, I have agreed that we should separate Scouting definitions from military definitions. But (as far as terms and definitions) I am ready to throw in the towel.

 

Maybe we should urge National to drop the terms field uniform and activity uniform; and urge National to adopt the terms Class A and Class B. It would just be easier for all to identify with.

 

I don't think we should turn into a paramilitary organization, I am not recommending that. I am just exhausted from clarifying the Scout uniforms are not Class A nor Class B.

 

Sorry for the rant. Just ready to throw in the towel on that topic.

 

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

 

[evmori]

Class A & Class B were in the Scouting supply catalog at one time. It would make sense to use these terms since almost everyone is familiar with them.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[epalmer84]

The IG simply states:

*Troops choose their own neckerchief.

*All members of a troop wear the same color.

 

Ed

[EagleInKY]

It's up to your PLC to decide, as stated, they can pick any type of official neckwear, or choose none at all.

 

This might be a good lesson in leadership and compromise for your scouts. For example, your PLC could decide that any "legal" scout neckwear is okay for troop meetings, but only "official" troop neckwear is okay for formal occasions, such as a Court of Honor.

 

Good luck.... and I, too, am ready to throw in the towel with the whole "Class A, Class B" terminology.

[Gunny2862]

First, recognizing that BSA doesn't recognize the following terms... then MHO would be that in utilizing those terms one would say that...

 

All options, are to be in *underline*uniformity across the troop.*stop underline*

 

Class A would be a full dress uniform(i.e Hat, Neckerchief or bolo, Long or short sleeve shirt as seasonally appropriate, Scout belt, Scout Trousers, Scout socks, discretionary underwear and footwear) what one would wear for their Eagle ceremony and would include their Merit badge sash or OA sash.

 

Class B would be what seems to be called the Class A by most posters at this site. Still the Long sleeve button down shirt , no sash, with Necker or Bolo, Scout Trousers or Shorts as seasonally or activity appropriate.(The traveling uniform)

 

I would endorse a Class C, Which would be as above but always signifies the Short sleeve shirt.(An optional traveling uniform)

 

And a Utility uniform which would be a Scout shirt and designated Trousers or Shorts dependent on Activity and Season. And could possibly include non-Scouting Trousers or Shorts.

 

Followed by mufti - basically anything appropriate for an activity (especially dirty or laborious ones), e.g. Hard-hat, Leather Work Gloves, Boots(prefer Steel-toe) Insulated Trousers, Wool Socks, 2-3 layers of upper body raiment for clearing trees from roads following an ice storm. Although even with this option I would like to see some kind of easily noticeable article or device that would make it easy to pick my troop members out of a crowd.

 

Just my take on what doesn't exist in Scouting but, it seems like an awful lot of us use.

 

(This message has been edited by Gunny2862)(This message has been edited by Gunny2862)

[epalmer84]

I did not mean to hijack this. By "pedantic", I meant, here is the official line, take it as you will.

 

The military uses and defines class A, B and C uniforms. There are two issues with use by the BSA: it is a military uniform usage and there is no BSA definition. Without an official definition, there is no standard from one unit to the next as we have seen in just a few posts.

 

But, as we have also seen, class A and B terms are in common use. It is really not the terminology, but what we do.

 

What the heck, the BSA uses the terms epaulets when they are really shoulder straps (epaulets are the fringe things that are held on by shoulder straps.)

 

Ed

[John-in-KC]

If we want to be pedantic, the items on the epaulets are TABS. They've been titled that way by the US Army since 1943 or so, when it first started using them.

 

If we want to be pedantic, BSA stole Green Tabs from the Army: We've been using Green denote combat line chain of command positions since WWII. It is the very green BSA uses.

 

The difference is, we used, and continue to use, felt. BSA chose a ribbon form.

 

I would endorse Gunny's thought, except, not being a Marine, I'd simplify things (Take the Fire out of the Old Lady, Upper Lower Upper... Gunny knows of what I speak...KISS)... Delete the Class C and make LS/SS a PLC decision for basic uniform. Some places, such as FL, CA, and south AZ will never ever need a LS shirt. Heck, here in KC, all I use is short sleeves.

 

Unfortunately, none of us are volunteers on the National Uniform Committee (they gotta have one, they have one for everything else, it's gotta be buried in the Secret Regulations Volunteers Never See In Irving!)

 

Of course, if BSA Supply Corporation were to get off its Fourth Point of Contact and finish getting us gear that has construction, fit and finish suitable for Scouts doing things in the outdoors, rather than for B-P's dreaded "Parlour Scouts," I will gladly surrender the terms Class A and B and go to Activity and Field.! I just bought a pair of Venturing Shorts today for Eagle staff son. I really should have gone to Cabela's. 100% cotton in a loose weave? Hello!!! Someone needs to look at the fabrics such as cotton cavalry twill used by the Army in the 1930s for Khaki uniforms if we're going down this rabbit hole. These things won't last a month in field use, and at $28 a pair (staff discount of 25%) he and I can still get better stuff at Cabela's, REI, Tooth of Time, or Bass Pro.

 

Here ends the stream of concsiousness...

[OldGrayOwl]

How about the terms:

 

"Formal" - Class A, all of the bells + whistles i.e. sashes, medals, etc. to be used for Court of Honors, and other very special ocassions

 

"General" - Still Class A, but without the sashes, medals.

 

"Activity" - What is known today as Class B. A uniform to be worn when working, where the General uniform could get damanaged.

 

Just an idea.

[EMTBasic]

Holy... er, um... moley! I have been getting such a kick out of these forums since I joined the site. I never would've believed that this much discussion occurs just on the subject of uniforms!

 

I agree with John-in-KC about the KISS principle; so I think the simple, practical terminology that OldGreyOwl suggested would work fine. But the Secret Order of Uniform Police Yahoos (SOUPY) have never seemed too interested in the we all actually use things in the real world. As you might imagine, I also agree with John-in-KC about the material and construction of the uniform itself... although I AM a big fan of the new pants.

 

HOWEVER- I don't think we should lose sight of the real issue here. The uniform is a symbol, and the way that symbol is presented should be important to us all. We can debate the nuances of Class A, B, Z, etc, but the bottom line is what the uniform stands for and how scouts & scouters perceive & conduct themselves when wearing it. There is another thread in here called "Scouts no longer wear the Scout Uniform!" that has included a variety of opinions and lively debate, and I'd recommend reading through it for more perspectives.

 

rwp? My initials. 113? I was the 113th Eagle in my troop.

Back in the saddle with my Step-son!

[scoutldr]

Sorry, OGE. "General" is a military term...as in "4 star". Actually, so is "uniform". How about "raiment"? (Where have I heard that word before?). Or "togs"? Or "threads".

 

Why are they called "uniform" when there are so many options? Hmmmm?

[emb021]

"Why are they called "uniform" when there are so many options? Hmmmm?"

 

Same could be said of the military. Each branch has there own uniforms, for different uses.