Have you ever noticed.....???

[Nessmuk]

...That the same parents who don't mind having their sons in half (or less) of a Scout Uniform never apply the same logic to their son's soccer or baseball or football uniforms?

 

....That when the little league baseball coach told all of his players to be in their full uniform at the big game on Saturday, everyone(including parents) understands and thinks it's great !???

 

... That you would wonder "what's his problem?" if you saw a Soldier, Sailor , Marine, Cop, Mailman, UPS driver, laundry delivery man (pick any) in his uniform shirt AND JEANS.. but it's "OK" for members of the World's Greatest Youth Movement!??

 

... That most parents complain about the price of the uniform and yet buy $75 play shoes, Skate shoes, clothing from Kid's Gap, hundreds in video games, PC's, TV's and DVD's in every bedroom..!

 

... That the really "financially poor" seem to properly wear and take good care of whatever shred of uniform they were able to get, while the "rich" kids often don't care if they look like slobs...

 

If anyone can relate to the above and/or have your own examples - Feel free to fly in and deposit your own nuggets.

[Gonzo1]

Nessmuk,

I often use the same example of other people in uniforms, especially youth athletics. I suggest that the kid go to the football game in pads, helmet jersey and cut of jeans and of course they say they wouldn't be allowed to play.

 

Blue jeans parents will complain if junior gets a burn mark, stain, hole or some other damage to his $40 jeans. I explain that such a mark on his scout pants is a "badge of honor" and he'll recount the story of how it got there with pride.

 

Gonzo

[Beavah]

.... That the youth sports teams where kids wear uniforms also have strict expectations for participation and attendance?

 

.... That the youth sports teams typically cost more than Scouting, and are therefore viewed as a "bigger investment."

 

.... That kids don't mind being seen in their soccer or baseball uniforms in public, but even then they take 'em off as soon as they can?

 

.... That soccer and baseball uniforms are designed to be played in.

 

.... That military, police, letter carrier, UPS driver, etc. uniforms are designed to be worked in.

 

.... That all uniform-wear outside of Scouting serves an important identification role (you need to be able to easily distinguish members of the other team, people need to be able to easily identify a police officer, a homeowner needs to recognize that the stranger coming to the door is a UPS man, etc.). And that when the need for that identification is over, people take off da uniform as soon as they can.

 

 

Uniform wear within Scouting really doesn't serve any of these purposes. Boys recognize their own troop-mates and patrol-mates without a uniform. There is no "other team" to be distinct from. People in the general public don't need to identify a Boy Scout the way they need to identify a police officer. The uniform isn't designed to be played in (but we're startin' to move in that direction). And we don't demand the same level of commitment/investment as da youth sports programs.

 

So da comparisons aren't fair, eh? Except for a camporee/jamboree with lots of other troops and such, the uniform isn't needed for ID within the organization. Except when doin' a public service where a boy needs to be recognized (like soliciting food from houses as part of Scouting for Food), there's no need for da uniform in public. And as soon as the need for identification is over, they should do like every other group and take off the uniform, eh?

 

Isn't da real reason for the uniform that we adults like to play-act as bein' military types? Parade kids around lookin' spit and polished with lots o'ribbons on our chests? That was OK for B-P, tryin' to train youth to maintain an Empire, though even he adopted military field wear primarly because of its practical usefulness in the field. Seems like stickin' with civies when a uniform ain't needed might be more in tune with our country's notion of citizen-soldiers, citizen-volunteers, and civilian leadership. Especially if that civilian outdoor gear is of more practical usefulness in da field, eh?

 

Just an alternate perspective for thought

 

[SR540Beaver]

I always thought that the purpose of the scout uniform was for the sake of identification with and pride in the scouting movement and to equalize class differences. Has that changed?

[OldGreyEagle]

I think wearing the uniform provides a lot of good within the program. Scouts from other troops can see where the unit is from council wise, what rank the scout is, what office he holds if any and what merit badges he has, if a sash is present. A lot is told from a properly worn uniform down to how many years the scout has been in the program.

 

 

[hot_foot_eagle]

Beevah makes some good points, but consider that police, fire, and the military (aming others) have separate dress and field uniforms.

 

I suppose now might be the opportune moment to pitch out the term "Class A" again?

 

 

 

 

[Nessmuk]

Appreciate the challenging thoughts Beavah .. We gotta always be able to answer soundly when someone says "why?"

Gotta say though --

Scout uniform DOES offer an important role in "identification" - to identify Scouts out of the rest of the crowd for pragmatic AND symbolic purposes. Also in terms of self identification with the Patrol and movement (a significant part of boy's self development) That is what we are all about. I recall reading an older item of Scout literature addressing Scout helping out in a crisis / emergency situation - and it emphasized that wearing the uniform is a key part of getting citizens to acknowledge your role - otherwise you are just a questionable kid in plain clothes directing traffic, serving food, etc..

 

Symbolic purposes are many too.. Removing the uniform from the methods significantly (like done in other countries) is a step towards diluting Scouting down into a "just like everyone else" group.. similar to what's being attempted with our values .. Regardless of the exceptions there is a correlation between the expectations of our values and character and our "look.

 

 

I think you are saying we only need the uniform around other Scouts - and that just does not align with my sense of Scouting nor my experience where at Scout-only events (except for Jamboree) it seems to be a great excuse for many to NOT wear the uniform - argued for the same reasons (Hey we all know we're scouts - no reason to wear it"

 

As far as taking off the uniform immediately I have new Tigers who's parents say they are wearing the uniform around the house and won't take it off.. I realize these are not teenagers - But when teenagers internally IDENTIFY with the uniform and their Patrol and the BSA (as long as the outfit is not too goofy - thanks Oscar!!!) they will weare it for the right reasons.

 

As far as "play actin as military types" - old story that says more about the person who says it than who's he's talking about.. The word "Scout" is a military term - period... Our roots our derived from a military setting.. True..BP sought to de-emphasize this some into a Peace Scouts concept - But he clearly stated he was not anti-military and did not attempt to hide or camoflage the military aspects of the movement. Every group that has attempted to do this (Royal Rangers for example) just plainj misses the mark in a big way (IMO).. If you want to go look at Seton's Woodcraft Indians or Beard's Daniel Boone scene, you will even get hint of militarism there.. although not a such..

 

As far as "spit n shine and making us proud" - nothing wrong with rightfully feeling good about seeing boys who take themselves and their uniforms seriously , have lots of fun and and are impressingt the heck out of people with their actions and looks.. If you don't feel good when you see that (especially if you helped make it happen) - something is wrong with you.. not them. -

 

Gotta goo - my fingers are tired and the boys are pouring maple syrup in the pancake mix..

[John-in-KC]

I was a soldier for 20+ years. Now, my troops received a gratis initial issue of equipment. If they grew/developed during their first six months, it was replaced with properly sized equipment gratis.

 

Thereafter, my troops received one or more uniform allowances, depending on their skillsets, rank and assignments. All my soldiers received mission clothing and equipment as needed. As it wore out from fair wear and tear, it was replaced in kind. If they lost it, though, they paid for it.

 

My officers got a token initial payment of $300. It just about covers the first Class A green uniform. Their battle dress/ACU, boots, shoes, blues, and impedimenta they had to buy out of their pockets. Like my troops, they got their mission clothing and equipment as needed.

 

My military uniforms are designed for the environment, and are made of fabrics which support mission accomplishment. I'm not asked to wear my Army Green short sleeve shirt into the woods (equivalent item to the de la Renta shirt).

 

BTW, I still use a couple items of field gear, mainly rain tops. They're too rugged not to, especially in high-impact environments.

 

Nessmuk, I ask you withdraw your comparison of US Armed Forces uniforms to Scouting.

[Beavah]

I always thought that the purpose of the scout uniform was for the sake of identification with and pride in the scouting movement

 

Yah, dats OK, eh? But its not the primary reason any of those other well uniformed folks Nessmuk mentions wear the uniform. Identification with and pride in sorta reminds me of my Irish friends wearin green in da St. Paddys day parade, eh? Is that what we really want uniformin for?

 

If so, then we need to have a uniform that the kids are proud to wear in public. And we need real neckerchiefs, like da rest of the Scoutin Movement. I think even then that wearin' clothes doesn't cause pride, it's an expression of pride that exists for other reasons.

 

Scouts from other troops can see where the unit is from council wise, what rank the scout is, what office he holds if any and what merit badges he has, if a sash is present. A lot is told from a properly worn uniform down to how many years the scout has been in the program.

 

I wonder if those are things kids really care about when theyre hangin out with other kids? Seems more like da kind of things we adults use as conversation starters over coffee at Cracker Barrel. Adult parlor stuff. Kids mostly just start playin together without worryin about all dat. I expect if a lad wants to know where another kid is from or whether hes done canoeing MB, he just asks!

 

All that only applies to camporees/jamborees anyway. For most of a boys Scoutin time, hes with his troop, and he already knows what council, rank, and office all his friends and patrol-mates hold, eh? I dont reckon the lads need to be tryin to catch glimpses of arm patches to know who their Patrol Leader is .

 

I recall reading an older item of Scout literature addressing Scout helping out in a crisis / emergency situation - and it emphasized that wearing the uniform is a key part of getting citizens to acknowledge your role.

 

I've been part of a dozen or so emergency responses with troops & crews, mostly boys respondin' to floodin' and SAR assistance. You'd never wear da Oscars in those circumstances. If ID is important, sheriff's office ballcaps, blaze orange vests, and radios do the trick much better. At community assistance events (like runnin' first aid stations for the local marathon), event staff T-shirts and name tags are da way it's done.

 

*****

 

Now dont get me wrong, Im a proponent of decent uniformin within a troop, not some evil commie or whatever I get accused of every time the topic comes up. If were goin to use the thing, we should try to do a good job of it. There is some merit to dressin up. Ceremony can play a good part in bringin' up boys, and ceremony uniforms are part o' that (caps and gowns, anyone?).

 

I just think we adults could lay off tryin' to dream up justifications for the uniform, and instead listen to the kids. They know a lot, the lads do, if wed shut up about what we want the uniform to mean and listen to what it really means for them.

 

Besides, our justifications are really pretty lame when we're honest with ourselves, eh?

 

Beavah

 

[Nessmuk]

John in KC..Sorry if I appeared to offend or draw an offending comparison.. Your experience is just that - your real experience - and I won't try to rebutt it.

 

To clarify, my comparison between military and scouting uniforms was not in how it is issued (or not), but in the fact that the military has had some real significant uniform and personal equipment practicality and suitability "issues" for the last couple decades.. They keep trying to improve (note recent ACU's and some new load bearing gear) but they keep missing the mark in several ways. More specifically, my comment was aimed at the daily "office wear" the air force and army have been issuing for years- It's not anything as good as the khakis or utility greens my father wore in the 50's. Why did so many things just seem so much more functional and simple then? I just pulled his khaki shirt from the closet - sharp looking, tough as nails, a little heavy , but purpose-driven. To get into more details on the military uniform comparison would be too off-topic here, but send me a private message and we can correspond.

 

Thanks for

[mtm25653]

Am I the only one who has ever noticed a teenage boy standing a little straighter and looking more confidant when they put on a scout uniform, because he is identifying with being a scout? Am I the only one who has seen cubs be better behaved when they button and tuck in their uniform shirts?

[kraut-60]

No,mtm25653...you arent the only one that has noticed what you described....just be sure not to be lamely justifying or militarising scout uniforms...after all helping Scouts engender a sense of personal pride in themselves might have adverse reactions from the wise old sages "dat" post 'ere eh!

[Nessmuk]

....That so many Scouters are anti-military?

 

Wow.. I never knew that there were so many Scouters terrified of "militarizing" the Scout Uniform - That's what I keep seeing over and over here.. You all know that BP stated he was "anti-war" BUT NOT anti-military" - nor should we be. The anti-military theme here is fundamentally hypocritical..

 

"Scout" - origins as a military term - with unending non-military applications.,

 

The uniform - originally a practical field and street outfit for with origins in the experiences of those who spent the most time afield - the military..

 

To acknowledge the military origins of Scouting and to adopt uniform features that make sense based on field experience does not mean we are creating a paramilitary force or even encouraging it. That is absolute paranoia.

 

Cargo pocket -invented by the military to carry claymore mines. -- Should we not have cargo pockets now?

 

Drab natural colors - BP said Boy Scouts should "blend in" with natural surrounding (for a host of non-military reasons)- Should we now wear everything white or blaze orange?

 

 

Epaulettes - a practical means to show rank or affiliation -- Gotta cut em off now?

 

Berets - First used in the military by British tank crews looking for a brimless practical piece of headgear that would not show grease (Black wool) -- Are all beret-wearing 70's/80's Scouts/Scouters now classed as para-military types?

 

Campaign Hat - Super practical field hat that most Scouters don't even begin to understand.. Based on BP's choosing a hat with Canadian Cowboy/Scout origins because of its great utility.. Do you suppose BP said (while wringing his fingers) "Oh... we don't want to look like American/Canadian cowboys now.. so we better not choose that hat...oh nooooo..."

 

Look at 90% of the Scouting games in the books - of military origin.

 

Who here bans all night-time camp games like "capture the flag".. ???

 

How about "Silent Sentry" ?- a game most Cubs will play 10000 times and not be tired of it.

 

 

And the list could go on and on until bedtime folks !

 

It's not hard to see why the movement is having such a hard time.. It's full of people who are trying so hard NOT TO BE something that they forget TO BE what was originally intended.

 

I'm convinced - There is definitely an anti-military element in the Scouter community - That's their right to think that way - but it's definitely out of line with the principles of our nation - and we are still the BS"A" -- How do we teach boys to be great Citizens with an anti-military attitude so prevalent among Scouters that people are afraid for the uniform to have some heritage and roots in the military?

 

Now it will be easy to accuse me of trying to make the Scouts into a military force or something like that -- No worries... I am a strong Seton & Beard style Scouting advocate too..

 

Got Buckskins folks?

[kraut-60]

Nessmuk, I hope you didnt perceive my post as anti-military. I am USN Ret. with 20 years service,..to me wearing a uniform is a PRIVILEDGE. I will agree that some here in these forums seem to be less than enthusisastic supporters of our nations armed forces.

 

I think what many of those dont truly appreciate is the sense of belonging and the esprit de corp that a uniformed movement like the Boy Scouts can look back on as an important part of the heritage of Scouting.

 

Nothing seems to me to be more of a touchy subject than uniforming when it comes to discussions in this forum....why I dont know.

 

I am grateful that BP and the Scouts and Scouters that came before us saw fit to have a uniform that set this movement apart from sports groups and bands.

 

While many organizations use uniforms as a part of what they are and do,...how many can claim to have a uniform that means something not to just its members,..but to the nation it is a part of? I believe that the BSA as well as the Armed forces are the only ones that can claim such.

[Nessmuk]

Kraut , Take a look at this...

 

MTM says

 

"Am I the only one who has ever noticed a teenage boy standing a little straighter and looking more confidant when they put on a scout uniform, because he is identifying with being a scout? Am I the only one who has seen cubs be better behaved when they button and tuck in their uniform shirts?

 

 

And you end with..

"....just be sure not to be lamely justifying or militarising scout uniforms..."

 

 

So.. somebody draws an age-old conclusion that someone (a boy someone) who takes care in their appearance (uniform or not) is INTERNALLY motivated to act more responsibly and with more dignity.. and you respond about "militarizing" the uniform.. MTM did not even mention the miltary indirectly.

 

Maybe you don't realize it and are so used to being hammered by the anti-military Scouters that you just 'let it out'..

 

Scouting needs to stick to its principles - even while the rest of the society is slipping down the rocks - And for the last XX years, society is pushing that "sloppy is cool" .