Neckerchief Rant

[Nessmuk]

My last response to a post on uniform got my blood pumping.. I've been wanting to put this out here for years !

 

The BSA is killing the neckerchief (and the uniform in the process) - Why?

 

1) 'Under the collar' promotes the Necker as a fashion item - not the practical, functional AND good looking item of clothing it is. (Symbolism over substance.)

2) While the insignia guide leaves the over/under option open to a unit to decide, it is plain confusing (and un-uniform) for most Cub/Scout Parents when they see a Scout catalog filled with under-collar pictures and the Cubmaster or other leaders are "traditional" and saying "over the collar".

3) Well just shoot me, but am I the only one that sees the under-collar mode as very "feminine"?.. Before you start accusing me of not being confident in my masculinity, just take a look at some pictures of female scouters and note how much more appropriate and natural the under-collar mode looks.. Look at non-uniform female scarves and see that they are most often worn under the collar. If I hear another scout's Mom call the Necker a a "scarf"......ooooo

4) The size and quality of material being used is more evidence that the necker is not being given its proper position in the uniform - too small and too thin - no use - just for looks.

 

..and I recognize Scouters are divided now on this.. Some see the necker as passe and it's now another way to make up an individual excuse about how one wants to wear the uniform.

 

I challenge anyone on the argument that the Neckerchief is no longer practical - even in modern times.. I am an avid outdoorsman and consider my preparedness linked strongly to my decisions about what gear I carry on a trip - Even when I simply leave the house to go to the store or the office the same essentials go in the pockets.. Among other items, a heavy oversized bandana/handkerchief (or two) is in the kit.. On a Scouting uniform the same concept applies - "only it's at the ready" and a visible item of the uniform - (Substance AND Symbolism) -

 

I don't know any serious preparedness experts or outdoorspeople who would seriously challenge me on the utility of such a device and practice.. Well then why is our great movement - with its motto "Be Prepared"- having such a problem with the most practical and useful (and symbolic) part of the uniform ?

 

Resourcefulness ! - I just read a great book entitled "Boys" -- can't remember the author -- (will hunt it down though) Summarizing one part - Boys are not being taught resourcefulness anymore - and its hurting our society. The Neckerchief is a great way to instill this quality in young men. Go see the book showing all the uses of a neckerchief (in the field and on the street (or in space even) ! And it's right there "at the ready" and visible ! A way to identify that "He is a Scout and is prepared" - That's what they mean when they say "outward expression of our values" in the literature - It's not just the badges.

 

OK - I have more, but I will wait and see what the rest of you think...

 

I hope the BSA gets this squared away.. Oh yeah,, just went to an Eagle BOR last night -- He was in unifrom - but not really (no Neckerchief)..Well at least he wore the scout pants and not jeans!

[John-in-KC]

I have my youth Neckerchief still. It was made by the Moms of the Troop, and was made well.

 

I have my WB neckerchief. It reminds me I've only just begun working my Ticket.

 

The things Supply Corporation sells the youth? Don't get me started on quality, fit, and finish. Yes, the Eagle standard silk necker is good... at the cost it bloody well better be!

[Hunt]

I agree that the under-the-collar necker just doesn't look right. I think that may be one reason so many troops have opted to drop the necker (an approved option--which means that the Eagle you mention may well have been fully uniformed). One note: isn't it called a "scarf" in Britain?

[Nessmuk]

Oh!! say it's not so BSA ! I missed that part somehow --Page 6 of the regs states the neckerchief optional for Boy Scouts ! By vote. It's worse than I thought.. I was wrong..It is more accurate to state that "BSA has essentially killed the neckerchief" - Extreme statement ?? We all know what comes after things become "optional".

 

The real threat is not the Uniform Police - but in fact it is the "Uniformicrats" (just made it up) who are making up these 'out of synch with Scouting' policies at National! It's enough to make makes even the most die hard Scouter dude (like me) want to protest by wearing a patch in the wrong spot on purpose! If someone asks why my Cubmaster patch is upside down, I'll say "I voted to make it that way !"

 

Oh... funny note about voting-- My son's WEBELOS II Den (I call them a Patrol in Formulation) just voted to name their den/patrol the "Rhinocerous Beetle Patrol".. Looks like custom patches for them!

[BrotherhoodWWW]

Ya'll touched on another of my pet peaves! I remember when Scout shirts did not have a collar and were green in color. Several different weight fabrics were even offered. In those days all scouts wore a neckerchief. Most of the skills we taught or learned in First Aid depended on the neckerchief. Then national for some reason changed the uniform to tan in the mid 80's. I could see the writing on the wall. Change the uniform's color and style for some reason never explained to me, or at least not sufficiently so that I'd remember it. My son's troop just elected to start wearing neckerchiefs; they decided by popular vote to allow any color.

 

In my opinion this is just another place where a "company" (BSA) forgets what their consumers (membership) desire. Changes to requirements for advancement, and program focus are other areas that seem to fit this mold, or have at times past.

[prairie]

I would wear one of those collarless shirts today, if I could find one to fit me, all have been too small so far.

 

For summer wear a silk necker will be some what cooler than cotton, now that national has shown they can go hi-tech with the Switchbacks how bout a neckerchief that is cool to wear? Just a thought.

BTW: The Wiki entry for neckers could use some work.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neckerchief

 

 

(This message has been edited by prairie)

[Beavah]

I don't know any serious preparedness experts or outdoorspeople who would seriously challenge me on the utility of such a device and practice..

 

Yah, Nessmuk, yeh must be an old codger like me, eh? These days the young'uns are into ultralight backpackin' and fancy fabrics made from recycled pop bottles. And even I have to admit they have a point, especially in da cold, wet north, where a big hunk of cotton ain't nuthin' but a liability . For First Aid in the days of proper wound sanitation and bloodborne pathogens, I'm afraid the old necker has lost a fair bit of its usefulness, too.

 

But I'm still a fan, especially because da necker is the one nearly universal emblem of da Scouting Movement worldwide. Forget the World Crest, forget special shirts and pants, the necker is the way you identify a scout in the rest of the world. It's a shame we're losin' that uniform connection with our brothers and sisters.

 

And I vote "over the collar." It's supposed to be a piece of gear, not a fashion accessory.

 

Beavah

 

[prairie]

Whoops, forgot about the under/over collar issue, my bad.

To me wearing the necker under the collar looks as bad as not tucking in the shirt. I hope I'm never asked to wear one that way,

I'dd wear the necktie first.

That said I keep my opionions to myself around the boys unless asked.

[Gonzo1]

I remember the collarless shirt too. But, I also remember the same era with lightweight shirts and all we did was tuck the collar under and put the neckchief on top. That looked even better than putting the neckerchief on top of the collar.

 

gonzo

[John-in-KC]

Mr Weiss, my first Scoutmaster, at my first Scoutmaster Conference, showed me how to turn my collar under. That was 1968.

 

I still do it. IMO, it helps the de la Renta Parlour Scouts shirt!

[Nessmuk]

Beavah, Glad to have you respond.. As you may have seen I'm a fairly new poster here, but I have been reading the site a long time.. As far as my 'codgering', I am only 38 and a child of the 70's/80's. I was in the transition phase green (no collar) to khaki (as well as a victim of book changes) Still love the beret (even if not practical - unless you're a tank driver) Just got one of those new wide brim wool stetsons from the Scout shop.. I like it ! I can't believe teh uniformicrats can sleep at night with having developed and issued the AWFUL ball cap for so many years. I like ball caps - but these nasty things were wretched from the start - even in the 80's. Can not even compare them to the current technology in ball caps.

 

I have evolved and changed over the years and almost come full circle on the gear and methods.. I keep finidng ways that the traditional gear and methods are just plain better - especially for a program that aims to develop young boys into self reliant good men.

 

On the cotton neckerchiefs - even if cotton it would still have a ton of uses in the winter AND furthermore one could make it from good looking and practical worsted wool (even Merino wool) that is durable and soft! Wool easily outperforms most of the fleece items in terms of durability and also insulates when wet and does not catch fire easily. Silk is even better in the winter - not just a summer thing.

 

A Neckerchief design contest (not just the color/patch) would be a cool idea for a troop.

 

Thanks for the great replies but keep em coming...

[kraut-60]

I feel the neckerchief should be functional first! It needs to be at least 32" and square, not triangular. And as long as we're at it,..lets have them availible in fabrics that are capable of performance under varying weather and temeratures.

 

I like the suggestion of using wool and silk, I fell both would perform well in the field. I would also suggest using the same material that comprises my new favorite piece of gear, the Buff...yes, the same thing-a-ma-bob that the ladies on "Survivor" used as an expedient top. The material these are made from flatout performs! It wicks off sweat with out getting sodden. It wrings dry and actually helps cool when worn as a head band.

 

I seen 2 members of the crew I was a part of at Philmont last year use these while we were on our trek. I was put off by the price at first ($15.00), but the Buff was miles above the old cotton bandana I was carrying and wearing as a head wrap,(sodden with sweat and stinky...great bear repellenant though!).

 

As for the over/under the collar question....I wore my NC over the collar when I was a Scout. Now as A Scouter I am wearing it under as the youth members of our troop prefer, right or wrong its the Scouts choice...after all it says "Boy Scouts of America" over the right pocket of our uniform...NOT "Adult Scouts of America".

[Trevorum]

Ah, the neckerchief. An iconic bit of Scouting regalia, now stifled by the Oscar uniform design. I agree with Nessmuk.

 

Ten years ago, when I first re-upped as an adult and bought my first Scout uniform in 25 years, I remember wondering what the heck is up with this collar??? Before our first pack meeting, I tried my neckerchief over the collar and under the collar and neither looked right. After a few months, I settled on wearing a bolo. That looked perfect.

 

When we joined a troop, I was issued the custom troop neckerchief. It was a decorative piece of cloth emblazoned with our thunderbird totem and with a proud history in our large, active troop. As an Eagle, mine was trimmed in gold braid. The troop looked mightly impressive in our custom neckerchiefs! I've worn that decorative bit of cloth to every troop meeting, campout, roundtable, and court of honor for seven years and not once has it occurred to me to actually use it to wipe my brow, compress a wound, or blow my nose. For that, I use my 99 cent bandanna. I don't know about the far north, but here in Texas, a cotton bandanna and broad brimmed hat are outdoor essentials whether one is in a scout uniform or not.

 

So the BSA neckerchief is evolving towards non-functional decoration. Sort of like the necktie.

 

Nonetheless, I wear my neckerchief as SOP - sometimes almost daily it seems. (I'm sure glad no one expects me to wear a necktie!)

 

[Kudu]

Nessmuk writes:

 

"3) Well just shoot me, but am I the only one that sees the under-collar mode as very 'feminine'?."

 

Yes, never at a loss for creative ideas, the BSA hired dress-designer Oscar de la Renta to bring the Boy Scout Uniform indoors where Parlour Scouting belongs :-)

 

James E. West is probably turning over in his grave. As he wrote:

 

"When I have found boys wearing the neckerchief, under instead of over the shirt collar, it developed that invariably the Scouts, and indeed their own Scoutmaster, did not understand the correct way of wearing the neckerchief. I am anxious that every Scout and Scout Official study the diagram, wear the neckerchief in the right way, and that he invite the attention of other fellows to the right way, when he finds them wearing it wrong." See:

 

http://inquiry.net/uniforms/neckerchief/swn1.htm

 

For a wealth of information about the traditional "Gilwell size" Neckerchief (32" square), including instructions on "How to Make a Traditional Neckerchief" for around $2 each, See"

 

http://inquiry.net/uniforms/neckerchief/index.htm

 

Kudu

(This message has been edited by Kudu)

[Jeffrey H]

My rant...

 

I usually wear the neckerchief for traditional reasons, but I've never been comfortable wearing it under the collar

 

The scout uniform looks best when we wear the neckerchief over the collar. It's the traditional look of scouting and it softens the military look of the shirt. We're Scouts, not the Army. (nothing against the army, but we're not the army).

 

Turn the shirt collar under and put it on. It goes on easier and will lay better on your shirt.