Which hat pin

[msnowman]

for wear by a youth on the expedition hat?

 

This one calls itself the First Class Rank Pin:

First Class Pin

 

while this one says it is the Adult Universal Hat Pin:

Adult Hat Pin

 

The main problem with the Rank pin is that it is a single post and thus would spin on the hat, whereas the other seems to have more than one anchor point. However, its downfall is that is listed as the "Adult" pin.

 

Could a youth who successfully completes his Ordeal wear this on the expedition hat?

OA Pin

 

Nephew has the expedition hat and would like to wear the appropriate hat pin.

 

Thanks for any help.

 

YiS

Michelle

 

(it took numerous tries to figure out the code for the links)(This message has been edited by msnowman)

[emb021]

How about not bothering to wear any pin?

 

I have the expedition hat and do not bother with a pin.

 

BTW, the OA pin is not intended to be worn on the expedition hat. Really the only two options are the First Class pin and the Universal pin.

 

 

[msnowman]

Out of curiosity - what would you wear the OA hat pin on? A hat pin w/o a hat seems to be akin to a smile without a face....

 

 

I have no problem accepting that it isn't for the expedition hat (I like the hat better w/o a pin on it).

 

Thanks

Michelle

[LongHaul]

My suggestion is the First Class Pin. That's what we all wore when I was a youth and the one I was told on MANY occasions by the Uniform Police to remove from my hat when I turned 18.

LongHaul

[epalmer84]

The First Class rank pin (00017) you referenced is noted on ScoutStuff.org as "worn by youth only."

 

If you take a look at the Boy Scout expedition hat, it shows the adult universal hat pin (50150).

 

Per the Insignia Guide (page 3), First Class rank pin (00017) is worn on the campaign hat and expedition hat by youth, and adult universal hat pin (50150) is worn by adults.

 

Ed

[msnowman]

Okay good, he has the correct pin for youth wear. I am watching ebay for one w/ a different style fastener so that it doesn't spin.

 

Thanks

Michelle

[emb021]

"Out of curiosity - what would you wear the OA hat pin on? A hat pin w/o a hat seems to be akin to a smile without a face.... "

 

On one of the various baseball-style hats.

 

The campaign and expedition hat are seen as 'uniform items', hence why you don't cover them in pins and the like.

 

While I do purchase hat pins, I rarely wear them. My flap, arrow ribbon, and (when appropriate) sash are fine to indicate my membership in the OA.

 

 

 

[Stosh]

When dealing with the Uniform Police it is important to remember that in order to go by the rules, one has to really go by the rules.

 

Since our troop does not recognize any official hat, we tend to wear what we want.

 

I have a non-official campaign hat of the brown color which I place a first class pin on. Historically this I believe was the standard for all scouts adult and youth. The only difference was the quality of the hat itself, not the pins. When I am in "uniform" the hat tends to be optional. If I'm instructed to remove my non-official hat during a flag ceremony, does that also include my non-official blue jeans as well? The Uniform Police are working on that problem as we speak.

 

My expedition hat is official, but so badly slouched it is often not recognizable as such. The color is quite faded. The Philmont brands on the brim are somewhat of a distraction, but livable. The adult pin that I had on it originally went by the wayside many moons ago. The crown fits closer to the skull than the campaign hat and the backings dig into one's skull. That was one wound and the pin was history. Instead I have gone to the historic ASM pin instead. It is the first class pin but becauseof it's color shows rank and with the pin clasp, the harmful parts are not on the inside of the hat. It is also adorned with other "stuff" such as a hat cord and brass numerals to indicate the troop number. Because it is so worn and faded, the Uniform Police overlook it as a non-official hat.

 

On the other hand the boys in one of our patrols have adopted an official hat and they wear the expedition hat with first class pin, hat cord and numerals. It is what they decided they wanted.

 

Stosh

[msnowman]

Okay - I think I understand the hat pin thing now - on an uniform item such as the campaign or expedition hat simple, clean and neat for pins is better - thus the universal emblem for adults and the 1st class for youth...since they are very similar there is the show of uniformity there.

 

Other hat pins like council, philmont, OA, etc are for collections and would be displayed as such, though using a cap of some sort...kind of like Cubs (rightly or wrongly) do to their caps with their Sports & Academic, popcorn, pinewood, etc pins. Where these pins are far more colorful and cluttered they detract from the uniform look.

 

Am I close to understanding?

 

BTW - Nephew's SM would like to see the whole troop go to expedition hats. Maybe the new SPL/PLC will consider the idea...they sure would look sharp.

 

YiS

Michelle

[Stosh]

Along with the expedition hat and the campaign hat, the baseball style is an official hat of BSA. No other pins are recommended for that hat. The red beret is also still an official BSA hat.

 

Plan accordingly, your mileage may vary. :^)

 

Stosh

[FScouter]

Official uniform police follow the current official uniform rules, which may be found in the current official Boy Scout Handbook, and current official Insignia Guide. Its not fair to blame the official uniform police for technically incorrect uniform practices one might hear about or read on an internet discussion forum.

 

A few factoids (ref the Insignia Guide or Uniform Inspection Sheet):

The only official uniform headgear is the BSA red visor cap or the BSA campaign hat.

The expedition hat is not a uniform piece.

Custom troop hats are not official headgear.

The first class pin may be worn only by youth.

The universal pin and the first class pin are the only pins that may be worn on official headgear.

Headgear (official) does not need to be removed during an indoor flag ceremony.

Headgear is optional, by vote of the troop. All members of the troop abide by the troop decision.

 

Of course individuals and troops deviate wildly from the standard.

[LongHaul]

For an adult to wear youth insignia is not in keeping with the uniforming method.

If you are wearing a non uniform hat you are not in "uniform". A troop can decide to wear official head gear or not but wearing non official head gear technically is not an option when speaking in terms of being in uniform for the purpose of saluting the flag.. One salutes the flag when in uniform and covers the heart with the hand when not in uniform. Wearing blue jeans means you cover your heart. Non uniform head gear should be removed out of respect for the flag and what it stands for.

LongHaul

[Stosh]

"Official uniform police follow the current official uniform rules, which may be found in the current official Boy Scout Handbook, and current official Insignia Guide. Its not fair to blame the official uniform police for technically incorrect uniform practices one might hear about or read on an internet discussion forum.

 

A few factoids (ref the Insignia Guide or Uniform Inspection Sheet):

The only official uniform headgear is the BSA red visor cap or the BSA campaign hat."

 

>> And yet the uniform inspection sheet states: "Headgear: All troop members must wear the headgear chosen by vote of the troop/team." While it may not be an official hat, if the vote goes for a custom hat, then it's an appropriate part of the uniform according to national policy indicated on the Insignia Guide.

 

"The expedition hat is not a uniform piece."

 

>> It is if that be the choice of the troop. See the above quote.

 

"Custom troop hats are not official headgear."

 

>> They are not official but they are acceptable as part of an apporpriate uniform if it be the vote of the troop/team.

 

"The first class pin may be worn only by youth."

 

>> unless it is the First Class pin of silver and green color which Scoutmasters wear, or the First Class pin of gold and green which Assistant Scoutmasters wear.

 

"The universal pin and the first class pin are the only pins that may be worn on official headgear."

 

>> But any pins can be worn on unofficial headgear, such as the expedition hat, and non-BSA campaign hats.

 

"Headgear (official) does not need to be removed during an indoor flag ceremony."

 

>> If you are making reference to official literature of the BSA for that, please indicate your reference. I can't find the reference. According to US customs and most schools, churches, etc. I have ever seen, even today, expect that no male should be wearing a hat of any sort indoors in the first place.

 

"Headgear is optional, by vote of the troop. All members of the troop abide by the troop decision."

 

>> that includes the selection of headgear as well, as spelled out specifically in the Uniform Inspection Guide.

 

"Of course individuals and troops deviate wildly from the standard."

 

>> because it is an allowable practice per the uniform inspection sheet.

 

And by the way, about 99% of the scouts in our council cannot pass the inspection given the state of their current unforming standards.

 

"For an adult to wear youth insignia is not in keeping with the uniforming method.

If you are wearing a non uniform hat you are not in "uniform". A troop can decide to wear official head gear or not but wearing non official head gear technically is not an option when speaking in terms of being in uniform for the purpose of saluting the flag.. One salutes the flag when in uniform and covers the heart with the hand when not in uniform. Wearing blue jeans means you cover your heart. Non uniform head gear should be removed out of respect for the flag and what it stands for.

LongHaul"

 

>> In our council only a couple dozen adult leaders would ever qualify according to your personal opinion, to salute at most flag ceremonies.

 

With all the discussion floating around concerning the uniforms, BSA national remains rather vague, yet unform police policies seem to find very specific and undocumented references to support their claims.

 

And yet when all is said and done, everyone thinks they know, but until they actually go back and read the official documents a lot of undocumented statements will continue to float around posing as the "truth".

 

"During the ceremony of hoisting or lowering the Flag, or when the Flag is passing in a parade, everyone present should face the Flag, stand at attention, and salute.

Those in uniform should render the hand salute. When not in uniform, men should remove the headdress with the right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart. In case of inclement weather the hat may be slightly raised and held above the head. Men without hats merely stand at attention, without saluting unless they belong to the naval or military service.

Women should salute the Flag by placing the right hand over the heart.

If the Flag is passing by, the salute is rendered when the Flag is five or six paces away and is held until it has passed.

When "The Star-Spangled Banner" is played, everyone present should stand at attention and salute as described above. The salute is rendered at the first note of the anthem, and the position is retained until the last note."

 

I could go on and on with this, but in order to indicate a point, one only has to make a couple of references to the National Flag Code adopted June 14, 1923, to know that most people haven't the foggiest idea of how to properly and respectfully give respect to the Flag. He who is without error, feel free to toss the first stone.... :^)

 

Stosh

[FScouter]

Well, as I said, actual practices vary wildly from the standard, and as you said 99% of Scouts dont pass inspection. Any individual or unit is free to deal with the uniform in whatever manner they choose with repercussion no more severe than a member of the dreaded uniform police pointing out a deviation from standard.

 

The uniform from top to bottom is spelled out in a straight forward manner in the inspection sheet, which by the way has been recently revised for 2007. And by golly, the headgear standard has indeed been changed from visored cap or campaign hat, to all troop members must wear the headgear chosen by vote of the troop/team. One could only hope that wouldnt be a propeller beanie with mouse ears.

 

So, as of 2007 Ill agree that official headgear is not required, and that whatever headgear the troop chooses is an acceptable part of the uniform.

 

The First Class pin however is reserved for wear by boys, per the Insignia Guide. Unless someone can point to some other reference that says adults may wear it too?

 

Regarding the wearing of headgear indoors, its a common courteous practice when wearing street clothes to remove ones hat indoors. Uniform headgear is treated differently. From the Insignia Guide, Official headgear may be worn while the unit or individual is participating in an indoor formal ceremony or service duty, except in religious institutions where custom forbids. Typical indoor activities of this type are flag ceremonies, inspections, orderly duty, or ushering service. Absent participating in a formal ceremony, the hat should come off indoors.

 

Its also interesting to note from the updated uniform inspection sheet that the standard for pants now has a clarification note which says Units have no option to change. Somehow I doubt that will reduce the practice of blue jeans and green walmart pants.

[Stosh]

As a historian, one must always be prepared to back up one's finding with at least 2 if not 3 sources of support. Unfortunately, most uniform police only back up their ideas in most cases.

 

The policies of uniforms changes from one year to the next with all kinds of different ideas being set down. Like the headgear change in 2007, it often times catches us off-guard and we need to back track a bit to make sure we are compliant.

 

With that being said, no scout in our troop ever bought scout pants unless they were going to national jamboree and were required in order to participate. That makes them the exception to the "rule" and thus when they do it right they stand out as looking different, i.e. not "uniform" in appearance.

 

However, when it comes to respect for one's flag, the "clothes don't make the man". If a scout is less than perfect in his uniform appearance and has his heart in the right place, how can we fault him? The major thing that bugs me is the people who find it necessary to point out the short-comings of others with often outdated or incorrect information.

 

Last summer I was up in Calgary for vacation and noticed a number of young men and women all in civilian clothes, packs, etc. in a gift shop. They were all wearing a yellow neckerchiefs. I suspected and then asked if they were Scouts. They were. Sometimes, that's all it takes to let others know what you stand for. By the way, I had a nice talk with a very interesting young man that day and learned a lot about Canadian Scouts. I also had a nice visit from another gentleman who noticed the pin on my expedition hat (I was in civilian clothes) and again we had a nice chat about Scouting except this time it was Australian Scouts.

 

And by the way, none of my Venturing Crew members owns a BSA uniform. They would never have an opportunity to ever wear it. The only "proof" of BSA membership is the card they carry in the liner band of their hats. And yes they salute, and by the way their color guard has been saluted by high ranking military officers even though it is in no way "official" in any sense of the word.

 

Stosh