BS Leaders wearing Cub Scout Leader Knots

[Beavah]

Yah, BA, no selective editing intended, I pretty much copied the same thing you did (though I included the bold face that's in the original document ). The section in the guide is "Special Regulations" and the whole section clearly applies to all Members, both youth and adult. In Medals & Embroidered knots, it recommends no more than 5 medals, and goes on to describe how embroidered knots are a representative/substitute for the medals. So Jeff H is about right in sayin' 6 knots or less (one extra as an allowance for things like District Award of Merit that aren't a medal ).

 

But it's just a guidebook, eh? Best to understand the reason, which is pretty much what Jeff H and Gonzo described. The BSA doesn't want us to project an image to the public that makes the average Joe think of Manuel Noriega in his prime, or even other far more honorable military garb. Simplicity is good taste.

 

Dat's why in most publication photos, you'll find fairly simple and "clean" adult uniforms, not bespangled by multiple rows of knots. And I daresay it's a good thing about woodbadge, havin' everyone lay off the puffery for a bit and recognize one another as equal brothers in carin' for kids.

 

As far as youth awards go, I like it when adult cubbers wear AOL, or boy scouters wear Eagle, or venturing advisors wear silver/ace/qm. Shows the youth "they were there." For the program they're serving, though. No point in AOL if you're a boy scouter, or Eagle if you're an advisor or skipper.

 

But if your unit or tmonahan's has a different tradition, it's OK to consciously do somethin' different than a guidebook if it works for your kids and families. Some units believe in and promote adult awards a lot more than others. Just important for people to think about all the angles so their decision is really a considered one.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[BrentAllen]

Beavah, o' wise one.

If only 5 medals or knots are allowed, why o why does the IG have a rendering of a left pocket showing 4 knots and 2 medals? I notice that none of the knots appear to be for the DAM. Doing my math, 4 + 2 = 6, which is greater than 5, most days. Please explain.

[Beavah]

If only 5 medals or knots are allowed, why o why does the IG have a rendering of a left pocket showing 4 knots and 2 medals?

 

LOL. Yah, and it's likely one of da square knots under the Eagle medal was red white and blue and another is silver on purple .

 

Golly I think that drawin' goes back a heck of a long time. IIRC, the "uniform simplicity" rule is more recent. I reckon one drawing is less expensive than two, and helps yeh fit everything on a page. Anyway, da thing is a schematic drawing, showing in one place how knots and/or medals are to be arranged so yeh know where to sew/how to attach.

 

Like almost all of da BSA materials, the IG is a guidebook. It's meant to be a resource, not an iron-clad, perfectly consistent manual of carefully cross-referenced rules (and pictures!) for scouting life. One of the great recreations of old-timers is catchin' all the inconsistencies and havin' a good chuckle. My favorite is the (attorney-added) "Scouting Identification" rule. Can you list the number of official badges that violate that one? Mostly, I'm happy if all the grammar in a handbook is OK.

 

So wear what works for yeh, or more properly what works for your kids, after considerin' the guidelines' intent. Me, I keep it simple. Though I'll admit I have a mess o'knots on a backing in a drawer just in case I'm ever at an event where "such a display is invited" .

 

Beavah

(not a "wise one". Them's the Owl's. We Beavahs are industrious, hard-workin', practical types )

 

[scoutldr]

Not having used to be a "critter", I realize I have no "cred" and probably don't know what I'm talking about. But I have to wonder why this discussion continues, when the answer has been established? If you've earned a knot, you can wear it. Or knot. Your choice.

[BrentAllen]

scoutldr,

Because we enjoy discussing it, and giving each other a friendly poke in the ribs now and then.

 

Beavah,

The only time I recall seeing anyone wearing more than 9 knots was at Wood Badge, during the luncheon where former CD's are invited to attend. Some of those elderly gentlemen were wearing 12 or 15. Did they wear them to make them feel important? Was it pride? I don't know. It really isn't any of my business. They earned them, they have dedicated much of their lives to serving boys in Scouting - some had more than 40 years of service. Maybe they like wearing them because it reminds them of all the fun they had over all those years. I, for one, am not about to tell them they can only wear 5 or 6 knots. At 43, I'm just a young whipper-snapper to them!

And yes, I wear all of my knots - all 3 of them. :-)

[Gonzo1]

Scoutldr,

You have "cred", don't worry about it.

When you get the chance,go to woodbadge, you'll enjoy it.

You're also right, if you've earned 'em, wear 'em.

 

Brent,

Our Council Commish wears about 5 or 6 rows.

 

I think for some folks, it establishes credibility to wear a bunch of knots.

 

G

 

[Beavah]

But I have to wonder why this discussion continues, when the answer has been established?

 

Yah, because there's not just one answer, eh? There's a bunch of different related answers, each of which helps us see a bigger picture and more possibilities. I think hearin' multiple different approaches develops understanding, and understanding is far more valuable than knowing an answer.

 

Like BA, I'd never tell anyone what to wear on their uniform, beyond offerin' some different thoughts if I was asked. Though I'm not above teasin' fellow old codgers who get a bit over the top . Of course if we've earned a knot (or even bought one) we can wear it. Nobody to stop us, eh? (Answer 1) There's not even a specific guideline prohibiting it (Answer 2), just a general ones telling us to keep the uniform simple, non-military, and program-specific (Answer 3). That's before we get into different communities' perceptions of good taste, and different levels of value placed on humility.

 

I think the mention of "cred" for beads or knots is an interestin' one, too. Does our critterlyness make other scouters want to take WB, or is it off-putting and a bit elitist? Or just goofy? Dat's the same tension with knots, I think.

 

So different answers. Whether we should do something depends a bit on who we are, where we are, what we care about, and some just plain pragmatic good sense. And on our understanding of those things.

 

Dat's what I think the original question was asking, and looking for, eh?

 

Understanding. Different perspectives to help make a choice.

 

 

Beavah

 

BTW, You too can get a critter name, and a whole bunch of furry (or feathered) brothers and sisters around da world. Both are readily available at a Woodbadge course near you! Most of us don't bite, but yeh gotta watch out for dem Bears.

 

[GNX Guy]

So Beavah,

 

If one were to follow your reasoning, it makes one wonder why the BSA even has the Eagle Scout knot, Youth religious award Knot and the Arrow of Light knot.

[nldscout]

So here is a poll question.

 

How many knots do you currently have?

 

How many of those you have earned do you wear?

 

Come on, lets hear it!

[BrentAllen]

I guess this is a repeat, but trying to break the ice.

 

I wear the 3 I have earned - AOL, CM, DAM. I wear them on all 3 shirts I have - CM, ASM, District Committee. BTW, I do my own sewing. :-)

[Gonzo1]

I have earned 3, I wear 3.

Eagle Scout, Community Organization Award, AOL.

Did my own sewing too.

 

[kevinpate]

3 earned during Cub Ldr tenure

1 presented based on service to district

1 earned during Venturing NL tenure

1 presented based on service to council

 

# currently worn = 0

My main role over the past year and for the year to come, at minimum, is web related service to council. As it is largely behind the scenes, alot of it is done in my jammies, and I don't feel the least bit compelled to sew knots on my jammies.

8^)

[Jeffrey H]

I have zero knots.

 

But...I will likely receive two Cub Leader awards during the coming year. Will I wear them? Sure.

 

[SR540Beaver]

Beavah: "Dat's why in most publication photos, you'll find fairly simple and "clean" adult uniforms, not bespangled by multiple rows of knots. And I daresay it's a good thing about woodbadge, havin' everyone lay off the puffery for a bit and recognize one another as equal brothers in carin' for kids."

 

Ahhhh, but things have changed under the latest WB staffing policies. Evidently it has been decided that asking Scouters to strip their uniform or buy a new shirt is too much of a hardship financially or for practicality purposes. Staffers wear their regular uniform. When I staffed this last fall, the CD took a vote among staffers to see if we wanted to wear stripped shirts or follow the new policy. Since most had staffed before and/or staffed other types of council courses and already had a stripped shirt, we voted to go stripped. Other changes are to not have a pre-course meeting for participants due to hardship and time concerns and cutting back the number of pre-course staff meetings to only 3 for the same reasons.

[DanKroh]

I'm definitely torn on this issue.

 

On the one hand, having a chest full of knots can seem to some people to be boastful and pretentious. On the other hand, they are also an indicator to someone who may be looking for guidance, "oh, this person has experience". If I'm a new Tiger Den Leader, for example, someone who has a Tiger Den Leader knot is someone who I would seek out for advice. Someone without the knot may have equally good advice, but without that knot, how am I supposed to know if they have "been there, done that"? I could go around asking each person if they have been a Tiger Den Leader, which isn't a bad way to meet new people, but the knot makes it easier to recognize who has been in that boat.

 

Also, as someone else said, especially given that we are for the most part volunteers, there's nothing wrong with a little recognition of the years of service given to the program. But I do think it can reach a point where it starts to look a little silly. My unit commissioner has four rows of knots. I do feel like I should keep looking for the stars on his collar.

 

To answer the poll, I qualify for three knots currently, but I've been lazy and haven't filled out the paperwork for them. In another year, I qualify for a fourth, and they are all knots for adult leadership (I did 4-H as a youth, not scouts).