green epaulettes on Tan class A

[Beavah]

But there has to be an end point, doesnt there?

 

Sure. As FScouter so stridently points out, the BSA owns and licenses the program materials & symbols. The endpoint is when the CO or the BSA decide to no longer license the program materials.

 

But, to misquote a legal aphorism, "Hard cases make for bad understanding." The BSA is very clear about it's business, in all of its formal documents and its allocation of resources and its evaluation mechanisms. And it simply isn't the "central Authority" that a few seem to dearly wish for. Most of the rest of us think that's a good thing, though we acknowledge the shortcomings along with the benefits.

 

Yah, and I appreciate the sentiment that many have that the BSA should reflect the military more, especially those who have served. Even agree with it some. Few doubt that the armed forces as a whole have operated more honorably than the civilian leadership the past decade. Happily, because the BSA isn't a "central authority", units that so desire are able to be crisp and highly regulated about the uniform and policy. The BSA even supports such units/CO's by publishin' detailed insignia guides and inspection sheets. Support is their job, eh? More power to yeh! Just recognize that the Insignia Guide is a piece of support material, just like program helps and Woods Wisdom and MB pamphlets and religious award pamphlets. No purchase required.

 

[FScouter]

That is not what I said.

BSA designed the BSA program and owns the program. COs agree to conduct the BSA-owned Scouting program according to the policies and guidelines of BSA. Program materials provided by BSA tell COs what the program is, how it works, and how to implement it. BSA program materials are necessary for COs to run the BSA program.

 

There is no such thing as a CO designed program that happens to use some BSA materials (no purchase required) that can be called Scouting.

 

The BSA program is incredibly flexible, with lots of room for COs to customize. But that does not mean BSA permits units to pick and choose BSA program parts they like, or discard the parts they dont like.

[Beavah]

Yah F. I understand what you're sayin'. I just disagree. To my knowledge, none of the gents in Irving with whom I'm familiar think about this the way you do. And from a practical and legal perspective, I just don't see what you see, eh? I think it's the wrong way to think about it. Insignia Guides aren't a required purchase, eh?

 

Yer welcome to your opinion of course, so we'll agree to disagree, eh? What's important is that we all keep to the mission of servin' the kids, and lending a hand of friendly support to the many organizations and volunteers who do the heavy lifting. I have every confidence that you do that every day. I certainly try.

 

Yours in humble service,

 

Beavah

 

[Hunt]

I don't know exactly where I would draw the line on uniform deviations, but it seems to me that there is a line--over the line one is showing disrespect to the program that one is supposed to be part of. To me, having a completely different uniform (i.e., green Venturing shirts) is over that line. I would add that anything that is done just to thumb one's nose at BSA is over the line.

 

That being said: "The fact that BSA does not swoop down and knock units that pick, choose, and otherwise redesign the BSA program is not evidence BSA nods in agreement." I have to believe that the contrary is true, at least with respect to the uniform: BSA must have made an executive decision not to try to get units to have more consistent uniforming, because it has done little or nothing to accomplish that goal. They could easily get much better compliance simply by adding a uniform element to the Quality Unit Application. Has anybody ever heard of any consequences from BSA to any unit for uniforming issues? Maybe they would do something if you put a pink triangle patch on there. I will qualify my statement, now that I think about it: BSA has in fact done something that will significantly improve uniforming--it introduced the zip-off pants. That was a step that actually increases the desire of members to wear the uniform--the very best approach.

[BrentAllen]

Beavah,

I know this was all back before Christmas, but Dude, what were you smoking?

 

The Insignia Guide clearly states, as part of the Rules and Regulations of the BSA, in Clause 4. Prohibition of Alteration or Imitation:

a) No alteration of, or additions to, the official uniforms, as described in the official publications, or the rules and regulations covering the wearing of the uniform and the proper combinations thereof on official occasions, may be authorized by any Scouting official or local council or any local executive board or committee, except the Executive Board of the Boy Scouts of America after consideration by the Program Group Committee.

 

Under Official Policy, Personal commitment:

The uniform is a constant reminder to all Tiger Cubs, Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts, Varsity Scouts, Venturers, and adults of their commitment to the ideals and purpose of the Boy Scouts of America. The uniform encourages them to take Scouting seriously because of the investment in uniforms by parents of youths and by adults. The uniform is a way of making visible members' commitment to belief in God, loyalty to country, and helping others at all times

The leaders of Scouting - both volunteer and professional - promote the wearing of the correct complete uniform on all suitable occasions.

 

If you go to the Scout Shop to purchase a uniform, they will tell you the proper way to wear it. If you open your son's Boy Scout Handbook, it will describe the proper way to wear the uniform. If you open a Scout Shop catalog, you will see pictures and read instructions of how to wear the complete, correct uniform. If you visit the ScoutStuff web page, you will see pictures of how to wear the complete correct uniform. Everywhere you look, you see instructions about how to wear the complete correct uniform. So, please don't tell me that Irving doesn't care about the uniform!

 

Uniforming is a method, just like Advancement is a method. Should we ignore the Rules and Regulations for Advancement, to keep boys in Scouting?

I've always like those flowery hawaiian shirts - maybe we can adopt those as our Troop uniform. I think the boys will really like them! Adopt Maui Jim sunglasses as official wear, so we can be really cool!

[John-in-KC]

Ahhh...

 

Uniforming is NOT A METHOD OF VENTURING!

 

http://www.scouting.org/nav/enter.jsp?s=va

 

Leadership.

Group Activities.

Adult Association.

Recognition.

The Ideals.

High Adventure.

Teaching Others

 

Nothing about uniforms in there.

 

I also see where Beavah is coming from. A rule which does not have enforcement resources behind it is a paper tiger. It's CYA, IMNSHO.

 

Fact of the matter is that BSA relies on voluntary compliance from the professional service and us volunteers. As I've said, even Councils take liberty with the uniform. Read my posting history and you'll see what I mean.

[BrentAllen]

My post was about Beavah's response to a BOY SCOUT TROOP wearing a Venturing uniform as their Troop uniform.

 

"A rule which does not have enforcement resources behind it is a paper tiger. It's CYA, IMNSHO."

OK, please tell me which rules DO have enforcement resources behind it. If I take Scouts to lazer tag, who is going to bust me? Or if I violate any other rules in G2SS? What if we advance Scouts who haven't met all the requirements? A Webelos Den Leader takes his Den whitewater rafting - where is the enforcement to stop him? Looks like lots of "paper tigers" to me. Or, on the other hand, we agree to run the program as outlined. Hmmmm. Let me think about that one for awhile, tough decision....

[captainron14]

I asked National about this topic. I was asking about a similar topic.

Bill Evans of the Venturing Division had this to say:

 

QUOTE:"

We have sort of a joke in Venturing where we say about anything goes except wearing the green loops on the Boy Scout uniform. So to answer your question, no you cant wear the green loops on the Boy Scout uniform. If we allowed that, it would defeat the purpose of having an older teen uniform."

 

If anyone knows anything about Venturing, you know who Bill Evans is and how he has helped develop the program.

 

The above statement along with the Insignia Guide and the Venturing Leaders handbook (both say the same thing, "NO GREEN LOOPS WITH TAN UNIFORM") Should be enough for any reasonable Scouter.

 

Enough said.

 

 

[John-in-KC]

Brent,

 

The Professional Service dedicates significant resources (time, talent, and treasure) to upon youth protection and abuse compliance unto the Several States. Additionally, substantial resources go into training the volunteers of Scouting.

 

There are plenty of resources (time, talent, and treasure) placed upon training and ensuring compliance for the staffs and facilties of the camps and reservations of the BSA. This includes members of the Professional Staff, to include the Ranger Service, as well as the Seasonal staff.

 

There are plenty of resources (time, talent, and treasure) placed upon training and maintaining the Advancement program for the 4 Scouting programs. This includes significant resources of the volunteer staff and participation from the Professional Staff.

 

Now, what resources are placed against compliance to uniform policy? Voluntary participation of youth and adults (both professional and volunteer). Not "volunteers in Scouting": VOLUNTARY compliance by individual members. I stand upon my comment "A rule which does not have enforcement resources behind it is a paper tiger. It's CYA, IMNSHO."

[BrentAllen]

Sorry, John, but that argument just doesn't hold water. Training for adult volunteers is not required. There is no mandatorty training to be a CM, SM or Merit Badge counselor. There is no enforcement to make sure a Troop is following and using the Aims and Methods. It is ALL operated on VOLUNTARY COMPLIANCE.

 

I listed all the resources National has put into promoting the complete correct uniform. They even publish a distinct, separate Insignia Guide! Chapter One of the Boy Scout Handbook has a complete description of the correct uniform. This stuff isn't hidden in some hard to find booklet! Uniform Inspection sheets are very detailed. The Scoutmaster Handbook lists "hold uniform inspections" as part of the opening ceremony in the Troop Meeting Plans, right after singing the national anthem.

Let's see - is the Scoutmaster Handbook a necessary resource for running a troop, or just some extra paperwork National tries to sell us? Is the material they include in there important? If so, would uniform inspections be important, or are we supposed to know we should just ignore that? If we are supposed to ignore it, please let me know which other sections aren't important either, so I won't waste my time on them.

[epalmer84]

To return to the original topic:

 

The National Venturing Cabinet recently updated the uniform page stating that adults should not wear the tan shirt with green loops.

 

http://www.nationalventuringyouthcabinet.org/uniform.html

 

This refers to the USScouts guide that stated that adults could wear green shoulder loops.

 

http://usscouts.org/venturing/UniformingFAQ.html

 

 

Ed

[LongHaul]

Brent,

Im affiliated with the troop which has never discontinued the Leadership Core concept and the wearing of the Dark Green shirts. This troop didnt adopt that uniform they just never stopped using it when National did. As for changing Advancement to keep boys in Scouting National does this repeatedly. In the mid 70s National changed from an outdoor program and went to an urban approach. The Boy Scout Handbook showed a picture of a scout talking to a policeman and the script read something like When you are lost ask for directions. This was the total content for finding your way, no compass no map should all of us have just chucked our Silvas? I had a problem with the Green Shirts when I first arrived but after a while decided it wasnt worth taking the chance of disrupting the dynamic of this troop. Since I have been with them they have had two boys receive the Eagle Rank. I was not present so I dont know for a fact but these boys must have worn their green shirts to their respective Eagle Board of Reviews. Seems at least that our District Advancement people dont think it is a deal breaker either. NONE of this has any bearing on whether the practice is in keeping with National policy, it is not. The question I asked was, in a sense, how important is it when viewed in the context of a functioning troop. We had an outing over Presidents Day weekend and there where 9 high school aged boys there running the program, half of them were juniors and seniors. In 15 years the only time Ive seen 9 high school aged scouts from my troop was at an Eagle Presentation Ceremony for our first Eagle Scout. Getting boys to accept responsibility and do the job of planning and running program has been a struggle for me all along. In this troop the boys cant wait to get into the LC and sit down and plan program. We can wear the overseas caps if they still fit or the red berets, I can wear my old leaders uniform light green on light green with the silver SM patch and still be OK because they were acceptable at one time. The only reason Dark Green shirts on Boy Scouts is unacceptable is because someone at National decided that it set the wrong image within a troop to have two different uniforms. In this troop it has a positive effect and the uniform parts employed where just as legal as my green on greens or the red berets.

LongHaul

 

[BrentAllen]

LH,

This may sound contradictory, and maybe it is, but my posts were directed at Beavah and others who claim the BSA doesn't care about uniforming - not at your troop. No, the BSA doesn't come around conducting uniform inspections, with reports going to National. They do suggest UC's perform annual inspections, and provide inspection score sheets (Beavah - why would they do produce those??)

Yes, I'm one of those hard-core uniform Scouters. Some might even lump me in with the Uniform Police. While I cringe when I see bad uniforming, I keep my comments to myself and only try to lead by example.

Heading off on a small tangent, I have heard troop leaders proudly claim, "Johnny may be late to a meeting, coming in from a soccer practice, but he throws his Scout shirt on so he can be in uniform." I look at that situation totally opposite. If the boy can't be in his complete uniform, then don't wear any of it. Come to the meeting, but either wear the full uniform, or none of it. Why this opinion, you may ask? Because other boys might see Johnny wearing only his shirt, and not realize he just came from practice. They see him and think it is A-OK to dress that way. Next thing you know, over half the troop is wearing only the uniform shirt.

I'm sure most have heard this before, but if your son showed up for his football, basketball or baseball game wearing only the shirt, he probably wouldn't get to play. Parents wouldn't take them to the game dressed that way, so why is Scouts different?

As for wearing the wrong shirts, I would cringe and think it is wrong, but I'm not going to walk up to your troop at summer camp and voice my opinion. If some of my Scouts were to

ask me about it, I would give my opinion and let them know we need to worry about ourselves, and try to lead by example.

 

You wrote "In the mid 70s National changed from an outdoor program and went to an urban approach. The Boy Scout Handbook showed a picture of a scout talking to a policeman and the script read something like When you are lost ask for directions. This was the total content for finding your way, no compass no map should all of us have just chucked our Silvas?"

Come on, now LH, a Scout tells the truth! I have my original Eighth Edition, Second Printing Boy Scout Handbook, February, 1973.

Yes, under "Town and City Hikes" for the Hiking belt loop, there is the picture and dialogue you mentioned (pg. 195). However, pages 204 - 212 are all about using a compass and a map, measuring distance and following a course. It even has the magentic declination chart for each state, and covers topograhpy. Did those pages fall out of your handbook? :-)

[LongHaul]

Brent,

I meant no offence in my post. The 8th Edition you referr to is the "First" 8th edition with the double tan cover and quarter page picture. The "Second" 8th Edition (which I think only lasted for 2 printings) had a full page picture of a "Multi Ethnic" group of scouts and the cover was not the only thing they changed. No finding direction w/o compass no measuring distance or hieght, no tracking, no backpacking, even in your printing look at fire by friction pictures no explainatory script. Should we all have stopped teaching these things? National brought it all back in 79. Wearing only the shirt is also a question, I know many troops that don't "require" or "promote" complete uniforming. I always wear a complete uniform or no uniform because that is what I became used to as a scout. If I tried to enforce that with my troop ( for info purposes I'm involved with two seperate units 30 miles apart. I'm SM for the "south" unit and a MC for the "North" unit with which I'm new. When I use the phrase "my troop" which it most certainly isn't, I'm talking about the "south" unit for which I'm SM) anyway I'd loose the boys trying to demand full uniforms.

LongHaul

[LongHaul]

Mr. Allen,

Sir, I stand corrected. Called my oldest and had him check the text and both the double tan and the later 8th editions have the information you sited. National removed the material as being requirments for advancement but still had it in the Handbook. My memory once again has failed me.

LongHaul