green epaulettes on Tan class A

[emb021]

"I'm newly associated with a troop which has been continually chartered for 95 years. They have some traditions which go back quite a way. One of the things they do is have all the boys above First Class wear the green Venturing shirt. They have found over the years that this aids in retention of older boys. My question is do you think this is one of the "authority" issues which the local unit/CO have the "authority" to decide?"

 

As someone else pointed out, they have no authority to do this. I don't care if they've been chartered 95 minutes or 95 years.

 

They probably got the idea from the times when Explorer Crews within the troops could wear the green Explorer uniforms, and later when Leadership Corps members could wear the green shirt (but with a "Scouts BSA" strip) back in the 70s.

 

However, Explorer Crews in troops ended in 1959. Use of green shirts by Leadership Corps ended in 1979, and Leadership Corps were dropped in 1989. So they need to get with the program.

 

Sadly, a lot of Venture Patrols think they can wear the green uniform. If they bothered to look, they would see that the uniforms says "Venturing, BSA". If you're not part of Venturing, you have no business wearing the green shirts.

 

A better aid to 'retain' the boys, is to form a separate Venturing Crew and have the older boys transfer to it.

 

 

[LongHaul]

Yes emb021, I know exactly where the "tradition" in this troop came from. It is not their tenure which they feel extends them the right but the fact that once it's part of the official uniform it's part of the official uniform. Some Troop still use the red berets, you find pictures of them popping up in Boy's Life. Why not the old Leadership Corps green shirts? My question was in reference to discussions being had about the authority to tweak the program. Here is a tweak based on past practice. When does tweak cross the line and become alter? Who decides? To Tweak or Not to Tweak there is the question.

LongHaul

 

[LongHaul]

New Thread Started See....Wild Uniform Adaptations

[Eamonn]

I'm not going to lose any sleep no matter what color loops people decide to wear on what color shirt.

I do however feel that we as adult leaders should set the example.

If we know what we are doing is not the way it should be done?

Are we really:Trustworthy,Loyal,Obedient?

If we think that by allowing Scouts to wear the non-approved uniform (please replace with what ever term you like.) That he is going to be placed in situations where he is made uncomfortable?

Are we really being:Helpful,Friendly,Kind,

Courteous?

Sure maybe the people who make him feel ill at ease need to work on their Scout spirit.

Just to show that I'm not without sin -I did attend a WB beading in my Sea Scout uniform and wore my beads!! Yes I know it's 20 lashes with a wet woggle or worse yet I might have to walk the plank -Splash!!

Doing it wrong? Seem to me to be a lot more hard work than just doing it right.

Eamonn.

 

 

 

 

 

[emb021]

"It is not their tenure which they feel extends them the right but the fact that once it's part of the official uniform it's part of the official uniform. Some Troop still use the red berets, you find pictures of them popping up in Boy's Life. Why not the old Leadership Corps green shirts?"

 

Different issues.

 

red berets never stopped being part of the official uniform.

 

However, use of the green shirts by Leadership Corps ENDED in 1979. In other words, they STOPPED being part of the official uniform for Leadership Corps. Green shirts were NO LONGER a uniform option for Leadership Corps.

 

Furthermore, Leadership Corps ENDED as a program in 1989. They stopped existing as part of the official Boy Scout program.

 

Its one thing to have a boy wear a uniform part or patch that is just an older version of what exists today (pants, shirt, hat, patch). Its another to wear a uniform part whose use was STOPPED/ENDED, or for a program that STOPPED/ENDED.

 

 

[LongHaul]

Red berets never stopped being part of the uniform? Why aren't they included in the uniform guide or sold by the National Supply? I know older Scouter who still use the 50s/60s style over seas cap so they can cover for flag presentation and pledge. These are no longer sold either the baseball type cap is the latest head gear. I'm with Beavah on this one, I've got real issues to attend to and the wearing of green shirts not having been stopped back in the 80's is not that big a deal.

LongHaul

[emb021]

"Red berets never stopped being part of the uniform? Why aren't they included in the uniform guide or sold by the National Supply? I know older Scouter who still use the 50s/60s style over seas cap so they can cover for flag presentation and pledge. These are no longer sold either the baseball type cap is the latest head gear."

 

They are no longer sold, nothing more. Because they are no longer sold, they aren't shown in the Insignia Guide. But you aren't barred from wearing them, unlike the green shirt for boy scouts.

 

"I'm with Beavah on this one, I've got real issues to attend to and the wearing of green shirts not having been stopped back in the 80's is not that big a deal. "

 

the forest green shirts are only for Venturing people to wear. Boy Scouts have no business wearing them. As I pointed out, which I guess you still don't understand, is that while this was allowed at one time, this practice ENDED. And this troop needs to respect that and the fact that the green uniform below to Venturing, not them.

 

 

[Beavah]

And this troop needs to respect that and the fact that the green uniform below to Venturing, not them.

 

Yah, so this is a good example that ties into my last post on the "authority" thread.

 

LongHaul says that this uniform adaptation helps keep kids in his troop's program. Helps give an incentive to advance, makes older boys feel special and want to contribute more, whatever. The troop committee and adult leaders approve.

 

So emb, how many boys are you willin' to lose to keep your uniform guideline implementations "pristine?" How many adults? How many adults and churches and schools are you willing to tell that their view of "character" (Trustworthy, Loyal, etc.) is wrong because they don't put as high a value on identical clothing as you? Are yeh willing to dump this 95 year old troop entirely?

 

Yah, the BSA doesn't care, eh? They don't spend a second of time or a cent of money worryin' about it. They're in the business of providin' program materials and support services. And they're happy to keep doing that for LongHaul's unit. Bet they don't think twice about includin' those green-shirted lads among "youth served."

 

Da BSA's Charter, Bylaws, and business are happy with "big and diverse." They're unwilling to be "strict and standardized" because that also means "smaller." So if LongHaul's troop like it and is doin' good by kids, and the BSA doesn't care and happily renews their charter, etc. Why do you care?

 

I guess if yeh want every other troop spit-and-polished like yours at da camporee flag ceremony, yeh gotta find a different Scout Association, eh?

 

[FScouter]

One of the purposes of the uniform method is to show all members of a troop as equals, all part of the same team. Departing from that and putting one group of boys in a separate uniform sets that group apart from the rest of the troop, creating a class distinction or clique one group from the other. It seems counter productive to the method.

 

There is no provision in BSA for two uniforms in a troop. Because BSA doesnt swoop down and stop it does not mean units have been granted authority to do so.

 

As someone said earlier, I've got real issues to attend to ..., and Id have to wonder why a unit would spend any time at all coming up with and administering two uniforms in one troop, particularly since there is no support from BSA in doing so. Any tweak is going to be promoted and defended by the head tweaker, so Id really question any idea that two uniforms keeps boys in Scouting.

[Beavah]

There is no provision in BSA for two uniforms in a troop.

 

The BSA is a program materials, supplies, and contract services provider for community organizations. They only see a services market for one uniform in the program; that's probably accurate. However, they acknowledge units that have different "field" and "activity" uniforms, and as we've demonstrated, they have no charter, bylaws, or business interest in the matter. The BSA does not "grant authority" to do anything; the unit is an independent entity that operates on its own authority. The BSA acknowledges and respects that, and agrees to support it. The only, quite natural proviso is that the unit agrees not to compromise the BSA's public image or market in the way it uses BSA provided materials.

 

One of the purposes of the uniform method is to show all members of a troop as equals, all part of the same team. Departing from that and putting one group of boys in a separate uniform sets that group apart from the rest of the troop, creating a class distinction or clique one group from the other. It seems counter productive to the method.

 

This is a reasonable argument. It provides one person's view of the uniform method, and of character.

 

There are other views, and other notions of character. Some may want to emphasize individual growth and progress, rather than sameness. Some may believe it's important for leaders to be readily identified in a big troop. Others in pursuit of "equality" may object to rank badges or patrol patches or position patches (after all, sports teams don't have such things on their uniforms, creating a "class distinction" between team members). Some think age-based patrols create cliques; some think they promote friendships. Whatevah.

 

The BSA, as a resources provider, doesn't care. They just want to provide resources that help units/COs pursue their organization's view of character. Whether green shirts really help retention is relevant only to that unit (or to other units who decide to try it). For the BSA, tweaks and adaptations are an acknowledged part of the American Scouting Way. They're how Scouting works in this country.

 

If yeh want "standard," yeh should join the suits that are petitioning to end the BSA monopoly. I'm sure there'd be a niche market for a highly standardized, centrally directed scouting organization.

 

 

 

[FScouter]

I strongly disagree with your contention that BSA is there solely to provide units with materials and service so they can run amok and do their own thing and call it Scouting. BSA designed the "program" and OWNS the program. BSA provides materials and service to support CO's that USE the BSA program. The "program" is not made up by COs. The materials is not the program, materials help COs implement the program.

 

The fact that BSA does not swoop down and knock units that pick, choose, and otherwise redesign the BSA program is not evidence BSA nods in agreement.

 

That BSA may be silent about a troop that issues a Venturing shirt to boys at 1st Class rank does not signal approval either. While a misuse of the BSA uniform of that nature may or may not be evidence unit tweaking run amok, BSA certainly would not approve or condone that use, if they even knew about it.

[kraut-60]

While I dont intend to jump in here and take one side or the other,..I can see one potential problem that will be apparent...The rank insignia is based on an oval of khaki tan twill material and will look rather out of place on a green uniform shirt.

 

I recall that there existed a Star rank insignia with a background cloth that matched the older Explorer program uniforms (Life Scout rank back in the day had no background cloth..the Heart shape was all there was along with the 1st class superimposed on it).

 

The only cloth rank insignia that will look correct will be the Eagle rank emblem in cloth. I suppose the metal pin-on emblems for Star and Life could be used.

 

I have witnessed several instances where the green shoulder loops have been worn on the tan BSA shirt. The most unusual was when the uniforms were being worn by several young ladies on their way to Philmont this last summer. The girls were/are a part of a Venturing crew from what they told me and had used the uniforms as an expedient as they had not gotten their own uniforms and in fact were borrowing the tan uniforms they were wearing on the train...one girls shirt had a ASM patch on the sleeve...she said it was her Dads shirt.

 

While I know that what the young ladies were wearing was not in keeping with the uniform and insignia regs...I didnt feel it to be my place to correct them, heck I'm just glad to see our youth members of any of our programs wearing the full uniform. Sure...inspection perfect would be desirable....but the reality is that most folks dont stick to the letter of the law. I would rather have Scouts and Scouters in an almost correct uniform than no uniform at all.

 

I consider myself to be a "uniform" guy..I go to the length and extent necessary to be in correct and full uniform...but that is just me...ok, I suppose spending 20 years on active duty in the USN might have something to do with my willingness to be uniformed correctly...I think it looks way cool too!

[LongHaul]

FScouter,

     This troop didn't "come up" with this idea, they have just been around long enough to have not stopped doing it when New Brunswick (Today's Irving) stopped. You say you think it is counter to the method, I thought it worked just fine when it was the method when I was a scout.

LongHaul

[OldGreyEagle]

But there has to be an end point, doesnt there? What if a troop decided the best way to retain boys was to have the first class and above wear the Venturing shirt and Eagles could wear a mountie red Esienhower military style tunic ala Michael Jackson. If the Troop's rentention and Eagle rate skyrocketed, would that make it right? The word uniform, when it is not referring to the articles of clothing refers to be consistent and the same, if you play with that concept, what other methods are you playing with? Actually if you can alter the uniform method, why do we seem to get bent outta shape when a troop fools with boy-lead? Patrol Method? Outdoors? What is the absolute core of scotuing that is so sacred no one dare "tweak" it? And if it doesnt exist, are we a national organization or a vaguely held together confederation?

[purcelce]

"I'm a male scouter. I think I'll wear the yellow female Cub Scout shirt with red epauletees at the next Troop meeting."

 

Wearing green eps on tan shirt is just as "wrong". If you are going to wear the uniform wear it correctly.