you know you've got a great uniform when.....

[Jeffrey H]

Brianbuf,

 

Changes in the uniform, badges, and icons will not help Scouting. If the boys believe in the organization, are having fun, getting outdoors, being challenged, then they will happily wear the uniform. Going to polo-style shirts will not keep up the membership. Scouting has always required a long-term commitment by adult leadership to be successful.

 

The BSA is currently losing numbers because it's values-based organization in a culture that is politically-correct and has very loose morals. Sadly, the Scout Oath and Law is an outdated concept for today's "cool" people. Now, we could change the BSA to be more like the rest of the culture, but I submit that droves of members would drop-out overnight. Why be a part of an oranization that has no purpose and core values? Heck, I don't need Scouting to go camping or get outdoors. I can do that myself.

 

Believe it or not, there is no BSA requirement that a Boy Scout must wear any kind of uniform to be an active member. Uniforms are recommended for a sense of identity and belonging to the organziation, but they are not required.

 

The only change I would make to the uniform is make the all the isignia smaller. Sometimes I feel like a "billboard", but that's just my preference and a minor issue.

 

YIS,

Jeff

[John-in-KC]

Mr Jeffrey H:

 

I will dispute one comment of yours:

 

"Sadly, the Scout Oath and Law is an outdated concept for today's "cool" people."

 

The word I dispute is "outdated". The values represented in the oath and law are truly for the ages. They were the bedrock of society in Greco-Roman times. I suspect they can be found in the the early Chinese dynasties.

 

No, they are not outdated.

 

Instead, a significant number of our current society simply reject them because they want to take the EASY way, not the RIGHT way.

 

My version of your sentence: "Sadly, the Scout Oath and Law are concepts rejected by today's "cool" people."

 

Thanks for listening.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

[John-in-KC]

Feedback is a gift. Most of the below is anecdotal in nature...

 

My son is in high school. He's 17 and an 11th grader. The faculty of the school have set an environment of excellence. Excellence is noted and publicized, be it in the classroom, on the ballfield, or outside of school at church or scouting.

 

I've seen the young men and women of his school on ordainary days. Someone (up to half the school) is always wearing a team or club shirt, or some form of uniform. These kids are proud of who they are and what they are doing.

 

I've seen young men and women at his school wear polos and T-shirts from Scout camps. They won't wear the annual "camper" shirts, but they do wear things that set them apart: Mic-o-Say, OA, staff shirts for the young men, staff polos in particular for some of the girl scouts (I know who they are because their names are in the paper for their Gold awards).

 

There is a reason Advancement is a Method of Scouting: YOUNG PEOPLE WANT RECOGNITION. They want to be set apart from their peers. They'll do whatever it takes ... be that good or (sadly) bad.

 

Help the Scouts design a great program.

Facilitate the resources for Scouts to execute a great program.

Give Scouts the mentorship to be great young men and women.

 

The rest takes care of itself, including the perennial hoopla over the design, fit and finish of uniform components.

[Jeffrey H]

John,

 

What I meant to say is what you clarified in your post. No disagreement between us.

 

Have a good day,

Jeff

[madmike]

feel like I am piling on...... but i was glad to see them finally update the pants for the Boy Scouts this year.

[Jeffrey H]

Brianbuf,

 

I took a look at your website (www.savescouting.org) and I feel that much of what you have to say is based on your personal experiences. You might have some valid points, but your thoughts come across as emotional in nature. You have no real statistics or surveys to back up your grievances, just simply your personal opinion and preferences.

 

Maybe someday well go to a different uniform, but as I said above that will not be the determining factor for success and increased membership. Long-term, experienced adult volunteer leadership at the unit-level determines a successful and fun scouting program. Its very hard to find those that will be a leader, stay with it for the long-term, and do it with enthusiasm.

 

As a Cub Leader, I can say that the boys arent worried about who Akela is. They know the name means good leader and thats all they care about. I have yet to hear a parent or a Cub suggest that we change the Cub icons to superheroes. People know the organization does not base its foundation on the characters of Jungle Book. Boys like wild animals like Bobcats, Wolves, and Bears.

 

We do live in a world of change and change is inevitable. However, I do believe that people like things that dont change, they like good traditions, and they like organizations that are not easily influenced by the latest pop-culture trends. The BSA is that type of organization.

 

My thoughts on membership decline are in my previous post.

 

--Jeff

 

[theysawyoucomin']

"Ridicule is one of the favorite weapons of wickedness, and it is sometimes incomprehensible how good and brave boys will be influenced for evil by the jeers of associates who have no one quality that calls for respect, but who affect to laugh at the very traits which ought to be peculiarly the cause for pride."

 

I think ol' Teddy Roosevelt may have posted that if he were a reader of this forum.

 

Anybody that has humped a backpack with Scouts knows it's not for sissies.

 

I think once boys learn where tradions of Scouting come from and see some of the methods put into action "espirit de corps" comes+ next.

[kraut-60]

Change Scouting to suit society's lack of direction and obsession with "cool"?Change or get rid of the traditional uniforming, emblems to increase numbers? Alter the programs to reflect that which is presently popular? Scrap the Scouts as they exist is what I am receiving from Brianbuf's post. Well, I will take exception to such ideas and suggest you run right out and form and establish a youth organization that will suit your ideas good sir, and good luck to you if you undertake such an endevour. I have no intention whatsoever to see "cool" become part of the Scout Law. I became too "cool" for Boy Scouts when I turned 16 and dropped out and was drinking and smoking and all the other non-scout type activities 'cool" teenagers did in 1974 and probably still do.

 

I am grateful that the Boy Scouts didnt change. I was grateful the Cub Scouts didnt change, because I was relieved to have these youth movements to turn to in order to help my son grow into being a better citizen of our great nation, because I spent a significant part of my teen years being "cool" and would like to keep my son from having to go down the path I mistakenly chose.

 

I'm also grateful for the traditional values Scouting has at its core, and I'm thankful that I was able to come back to Scouting after being "cool". I would have likely said some rather opinionated things regarding what Briabuf's prefered version of Scouting could be, but I ran it through the Scout filter and nothing came out the other side, so I guess it wasnt in line with the Scout Law and Oath.

[brianbuf]

"You have no real statistics or surveys to back up your grievances, just simply your personal opinion and preferences. "

 

Stats are linked in the web site. 1 in 20 units closed up in a single year (2005 vs 2004). Talk about a wake up call!

 

Hey, some are coming across as "more holier than thou" because it appears they are putting what they like ahead of what the boys might like.

 

No, never throw away the values. No, don't just try to be a mini-street gang or go with society on everything. But I will say this, if Baden-Powell had set up scouting today most of the old timers would not recoginize it. I say this based upon one simple truth: When BP set it up, it was "in tune with his times"... it was modern for the early 1900's. So his precident isn't to go back 50 or 100 years for icons and chants, it was to use his modern day references. And thats a fact, jack.

Seriously, thanks for all the differing views. A good discussion is always a learning expereince. Keep them coming.

 

 

 

[FireKat]

"1 in 20 units closed up in a single year (2005 vs 2004). Talk about a wake up call! "

I live in a small town. We have so many troops that it became impossible for some troops to sell popcorn as the compition was too much.  Well, council keeps trying to start MORE troops instead of really supporting what exists.  Durning the time frame you are talking about our council formed about 3 new troops which folded in that time also.  You can keep a troop going with about a dozen boys but when the numbers fall below that there is not enough volunteer support to keep them going. 

 Do not focus on troop/pack numbers but look more at numbers of boys.

[Beavah]

All the hyperbole is givin' me whiplash, eh?

 

Nobody suggested abandoning values or goin' with the latest fad. Get a grip on your toasters, people! All I've heard suggested tweaking the trappings so that they're more interesting to boys or at least not an obstacle to boys at first impression. Don't any of us ever spruce ourselves up to make a better first impression?

 

Boys Life is in full color, now, after all.

 

If the boys believe in the organization, are having fun, getting outdoors, being challenged, then they will happily wear the uniform.

 

I had to laugh at this. Have yeh ever talked to boys in the program? They love what they do, they agree that it's cool, they have fun, get outdoors, are challenged. They even buy into da values.

 

I've yet to meet one who doesn't think that the current uniform is an "adult thing" that they just have to put up with (and with a bit of quiet embarrassment when with their non-scoutin' friends).

 

 

All that havin' been said, brianbuf should be listenin' when folks doubt his guesses as to cause. BB, you might not be aware, but in the last two years a number of BSA councils have been involved in major "numbers fraud" in terms of membership, eh? They've been inflating their roles for better evaluations and to entice more fundraising. Timeless Values at work.

 

As a result, this last year many councils conducted more aggressive "membership audits." Most of us guess that a one- or two-year big drop is the result of correctin' abuses and sloppiness, not a real change in the number of active units or kids.

 

What is still real is a slow, steady shrinkage in our % of youth served outside "special interest" populations like LDS, and our relative inability to penetrate into minority populations. That kind of slow, steady decline is not the direct result of either uniformin' or our holdin' traditional values through court challenges, though both of those may be symptoms.

 

 

 

[SMDaveAZ]

A couple of uniform comments. I know I was a geek in HS, which, by the way, wasn't that long ago, but I wore my uniform to school a few times. Mainly for class pictures. (I think I stopped after my freshman or sophomore years) I loved it. Even after I stopped wearing my field uniform, I still always wore camp staff or OA t-shirts. What was even better was when some of the kids in my class would come up to me and ask what some of the badges meant. Also, I always went into the store either before or after scout meetings to get something and the same thing would happen there.

 

Fast forward to now, we have 4 new members of our troop. These boys are from a really poor area of town and since joining have begged us to help them get a uniform. They want to wear a uniform! They get kinda bored with some of the other parts of Scouting, but they are excited to get a Scout uniform.