you know you've got a great uniform when.....

[brianbuf]

when the kids, the 12-15 year old kids, will actually happily wear it to regular things like school. I should say your average 12-15 year old kids.

 

The BSA, before they consider any changes and updates, should do some focus groups with boys so that they can get a uniform that still holds the values yet doesn't make the average kid feel like a geek.

 

See my opinions at www.savescouting.org

 

Brian

[emb021]

Actually, the BSA does that currently.

 

Many changes in the program, etc. are tested at the local level for up to 2 years. Varsity Scouting was tested for almost four years before it was rolled out as a National program.

 

The change in the office and rank patches from the very colorful backgrounds from the 1970s were changed in 1989 to the tan background after testing them, etc. Many kids prefered that to the more colorful versions. But I also know of kids who wanted to keep the colorful versions. Can't please them all.

 

[theysawyoucomin']

I very much disagree with some of your ideas.

 

Change Woodbadge Patrols? Working your ticket?

Your critique of Woodbadge symbols and lingo is out of whack. The Wood badge song?

Wood badge oozes tradition. Are you going to tell your course director you don't want to wear Boer war trophy beads from Dinizulu(sp?)

A large percentage of Scouters don't even know what woodbadge is and if a couple of songs and using animals for symbols is wrong we'll then just don't take woodbadge. As for the course the whole thing was just revamped. I gained much.

 

I agree with you about the declining numbers. Many times parents are to blame for not participating and helping the boy work through the program. Some parents don't honor the program for what it is.

Some parents were so fouled up they could sent their son without a snack for after school meetings. They are the same parents that don't send their kid to soccer with a drink of water.

 

I'm sorry but I don't think the uniform is geeky. It looks an awful lot like my summer service "c" uniform in the Marines.

 

The knee socks OK, very British. but my son likes them.Maybe we could have gangsta shorts that are slung low and boxers that show above them. Maybe instead of merit badges we could all look like MR. T wanna bees. Maybe Our new oath could be a rap. Let is embrace a culture that glorifies death and violence not to mention degredation of my be--otches. Just because some of our youth is going down the loo doesn't mean the rest of us should follow.

 

I don't have an answer to declining rolls except this:

 

When BP came up with Scouting in 1907 young boys were working in factories 14 hours a day, others were running loose. No organized sports run by over indulgent parents. No fathers screaming a kids for striking out in LL baseball. Children were to be seen and not heard from in Edwardian England. Today we (including me) spend a tremendous amount of time making sure our kids are spoiled rotten.

 

I agree we need some ideas to get good numbers agin but let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

 

And don't even think of taking the crystal radio out of the Bear book. That radio is just as cool as it was in the first Cub book in 1930. The parts are getting hard to find but my boys were happy when they made theirs.

 

I do like the ticket idea it generates discussion. Very good.

Best of luck with your other goals.

[brianbuf]

Thanks for visiting my site at www.savescouting.org

 

And thanks for your replies. One father told me he had kids in his troop (one city away) that quite frankly could not afford the uniform and the patches and things. (they could not afford the sports gear either...)

He suggested a polo shirt for 10 bucks.. maybe a colored collar to replace the neckerchief, and a sash (which I posted this idea on the website)... the sash could have 50 cent or $1 pins or patches... total cost of a complete uniform with tons of awards would be cheaper than just the $35 the local scout office charges for just the shirt. I ended up buying one on line last time around for half.

 

Anyway, discussion is good.

[BrentAllen]

Brian,

Methinks you have missed a huge part of Scouting. Scouting is not about being "cool" or judging who is cool and who isn't. In fact, that is one of the big battles we are fighting in the schools today.

For 5th graders and up, being smart is not cool. Smart kids are geeks and nerds. "Cool" kids don't hang out with the nerds and geeks; in fact, they pick on and tease them. The day Scouts starts competing in the "cool" game will be the day Scouts has died. Did they add another point to the Scout Law - A Scout is Cool? The Law and Oath teach a boy what a Scout should be - it does not teach a boy that being "cool" is more important than being trustworthy, loyal,...

My unit is up 35% this year. We went from 92 to 125 boys. We wear the full uniform. We went on a hike at Kennesaw Mountain Saturday, where 90% of the boys wore their full uniform. They are proud of it and enjoy wearing it.

Other units in my district have had great recruiting seasons. Most are up over 20%. Why are we having such good results? We have a great DD and DE and they have worked the schools hard on School Night for Scouting. Organization. Execution. Enthusiasm.

 

Are you going to change the awards/levels every time a new movie or fad comes out? Toy Story sure was popular for a while, but has seen it's day. The Braves, Dodgers, Giants, Mets, Red Sox, etc... have been around for a long, long time. According to your theory, they should have needed to change their mascots/names years ago. Not so.

 

Some boys enjoy seeing pictures of their dads in their uniforms from when they were kids, and enjoy earning the same badges. Are you going to do away with the Eagle award? It sure is old!!

 

If the uniforms are too expensive, buy used ones on ebay.

 

The program does not need to change. The program can be as exciting or as boring as the adult leaders choose to make it. Offer an exciting program, and the boys will show up.

Keep it simple, make it fun.

[Eamonn]

I'm a little confused what this thread is about?

Is it the uniform or that Scouting is out of date?

A thread about uniforms and uniforming will stir everyone up.

Someone will of course remind us all that while Uniform is a method of Scouting, a uniform is not required for membership in the BSA.

Someone will say that the uniform is made of all the wrong materials.

Then there is the question of the cut of the pants.

After about 60 or 70 replies the thread will fade away until it comes back and we rehash it all over again.

I gladly confess to being an old stick in the mud. I really don't care that much what the uniform is. I wear it because it is the uniform.

But I hear you say "You are not a Lad of 12-15 years of age"

Yes I was at one time, but that was some time back.

I attended a School with a very strictly enforced School uniform. So maybe that doesn't count.

I do however have a 18 year old home grown Lad.

A good looking Lad.

He likes cute t-shirts with words of wisdom or just silly words written on them. The school he attends doesn't allow shirts with ads for beer, cigarettes, drugs or sex.

He must have been really bored one day over the summer, as he left his bedroom and informed me that he has 229 T-shirts.

He has them in all sorts of colors.

He has T-shirts from different Scout camps, different Scouting activities, the OA, Philmont, National Jamborees as well as the ones from choir, Students for ethical decision making (It's a club at school)plain white T-shirts, tie-dye T-shirts, old Navy, and just about every brand you can think of. I think he even has my Beatles Let it be T-shirt. As a rule lately he wears a unbuttoned dress type shirt over the T-shirt. He likes T-shirts.

But he never wears a Scouting T-shirt to school.

The Scouting shirts are the same cut as the other shirts, the colors are fine and dandy, he has at times pestered me to provide my hard earned money to pay for these shirts.

So I can't help thinking that if the coolest person on the planet were to design a Scout shirt that looked in any way like a Scout shirt he wouldn't wear it to school.

For the past few years his mother has spent countless hours telling him to pull his pants up.

He was into the baggy look, this year he went shopping for jeans for school. I tend to go with Lee or Levi's, this year he is into Aropostale and they are so tight he can't fit his wallet in his back pocket. Talking with the mother of one his friends she was upset that her son spent $70.00 on jeans with holes in. I suppose I should be thankful that he isn't into holes.

TJ, is a youth member of the Ship. A fairly good bass guitarist. TJ likes Heavy Metal music, I don't think he knows much about King Crimson or In the Court of the Crimson King, but he was trying to talk his parents into allowing him to attend Ozzy" Osbourne's Ozzfest. Somehow I don't see him wearing anything that might might be taken for a Scout uniform.

Strange thing is that both these Lads are Sea Scouts they are both very happy to wear their Sea Scout uniforms, parts of which date back to the early 1800's.

No they don't wear them to school, but they take great pride in being Sea Scouts and wearing the Sea Scout uniforms.

As for saving Scouts?

First we need to look at the reason why young people join Scouting?

This isn't hard.

They join for Fun, adventure and to be challenged.

The little Lads in the blue shirts might join because their parents think it's a good idea, but that's another topic.

Youth members quit because they are not having fun, they are not being challenged and there is not enough adventure.

Of course different age groups have different levels of skill and varying abilities. But the Scouting program can offer a wide range of activities that will hold the interest of any young person.

Sending letters to the National HQ is to my mind a waste of 39 cents.

The program is what we the volunteers make of it and holding the interest of our youth members is all in how we deliver the program.

If the group of Scouts you serve are not happy with filling the woods with a rousing chorus of Ging gang goolie, life isn't that hard -Just don't sing it!

If you don't like the Wood Badge song and the Wood Badge critters take the course in England, they don't use patrol names any more!!

We as the adults should know that this is a game with a purpose. But so far I have yet to meet a youth member who joined Scouting to have his or her Character developed or because they wanted to work on their ethical decision making skills.

On page one of the Boy Scout Handbook we promise the lad who is joining Scouting a lot of things.

If we want to "Save Scouting" all we have to do is deliver the goods.

Eamonn.

[brianbuf]

Thanks for the (long) replies. Too long to reply to the points. If I did I would miss work it would take too long.

 

Bottom line is what we are doing nationwide is NOT working. One in 20 troops closed up in a single year. "Working the program" is "killing the program."

 

Scouts can be made "cooler" and STILL keep the values! For it to survive, it has to "change". (A woodbadge topic!)

 

 

[Beavah]

Yah, you guys are bein' a bit harsh on da new woodbadger, eh? Why don't we tone down the Fire! ready, aim a bit?

 

I think our new member raises some interestin' points, and I think any organization is dead if it doesn't listen carefully to the first impressions of new people. They have "fresh eyes" and see things the way those of us who have been immersed in scoutin' for 30 years cannot.

 

Fact is, many of our best scouts 'round here are a bit embarrassed to be in scouts. I think more than half of the Eagle BOR's I've sat on, the boy has confessed that at some point durin' his career he hid his scout membership from his peers at school. Hard to grow or maintain membership if our best kids think our reputation and brand identity are too dorky to share with their friends.

 

So look what brianbuf is sayin', and listen before shootin.

 

1. Sing-alongs and badges are cub scout fare.

I confess I'm a singer (yeh should hear me on a good night in a pub), but that's part of my cultural fare. The kids put up with me on campouts if my songs are roudy enough, eh? But yeh don't see many middle school kids doin' singsongs in their regular life. Too "little kid" for 'em, eh? So we may all stir our hearts singin' Gilwell, but to the boys it may look like we're a bunch of 3rd grade teachers bein' dorky.

 

2. Da uniform is embarrassin'.

It's hard to recruit if one of your major methods and public symbols is somethin' that your members wouldn't be seen dead with in public. Yah, yah, all us veterans have attachments to military-style dress uniforms, but not da kids, eh? Their uniforms are action-oriented - BDU's, sports uniforms, that kind of thing. It's just a symbol of association; kids wear those all the time. Find 'em something they're proud to wear, even if it doesn't look like the mini-marines.

 

Yah, da program does not need to change. There will always be some kids who want to be like dad or whatever. Historical re-enactors are fun people, eh? But they make up a very small percentage of the populace. And traditional BSA scouting might become just as small if we don't listen to new, fresh voices before we shoot 'em.

 

 

[fgoodwin]

Brian:

 

As I understand it, your proposal to save Scouting boils down to updating the:

 

1. icons

2. uniform

3. merit badges

 

I don't disagree with your proposals, and they actually may have some merit, but where I have a problem is this: nowhere on your webpage do you provide any evidence that you've talked to any boys about what they actually want.

 

Your ideas are what you *think* boys want, but have you actually asked them? Please don't mistake my criticism for disagreement. I want to save Scouting as much as anyone. I just don't want to see BSA replace one set of methods with another that will also be rejected by boys.

 

Best of luck to you in your quest.

 

Fred Goodwin, UC

Alamo Area Council

[BrentAllen]

He asked for opinions, eh, Beavah? Feedback is a gift, eh?

 

Boys have probably been embarrassed to wear their Boy Scout uniform to school since the 60's. I certainly was in the late 70's. This is not a new phenomenon, and this is not causing any one-year drop in membership numbers. See "Cleaning the Rolls" for a more plausible explanation.

In Cubs, it was fine to wear their new uniform to school, but not in middle or high school. So what? I'll wager you aren't going to come up with ANY new Boy Scout uniform that boys will want to wear to middle or high school. So why waste your time?

 

My son really likes his martial arts uniform, but he would never wear it to school. It would be out of place at school, just as the Boy Scout uniform would be.

 

It isn't the uniform.

 

Go into a high school assembly and ask all the boys in Boy Scouts to stand up. Even some of the boys who absolutely love Scouting won't do it. I don't really see a problem with that. As long as they participate in Scouts and live by the Oath and Law, I don't see a need to make them publicly broadcast their membership.

It is not just in this country, either. Scoutmasters in South Africa told me they had boys who would rather be dead than let some of their schoolmates know they were in Scouts. Again, they loved the program, loved the campouts, etc... but felt others would consider them geeks or something.

 

If you feel compelled to change anything, focus on changing the public, not our program. "Cool" is fickle. "Cool" does not live by a code. "Cool" is often simply a display of wealth. "Cool" is a valueless, moving target, whereas the Oath and Law are rock solid. Scouting does not have to be "cool" - it just has to be fun and exciting.

Yes, being "cool" is a real sore spot with me. We've had some boys in our Pack teased pretty badly because they weren't in the "cool" crowd. The "cool" boys are such bad apples, I don't think I would let them in my house to clean my toilets.

[Lisabob]

Eamonn says of his son "But he never wears a Scouting T-shirt to school. [...]So I can't help thinking that if the coolest person on the planet were to design a Scout shirt that looked in any way like a Scout shirt he wouldn't wear it to school."

 

Funny thing. My son was the same way for a while. The first half of 6th grade was the worst. He wouldn't be caught dead in public in his uniform. He literally hid - under a blanket - in the back seat of the car on the way to and from meetings so that no one would see him in uniform. Heaven help us if I decided to stop at the grocery store on our way home. I bit my tongue (hard) and waited. Then about late April last spring he did a 180 degree turn. Since then he has been known to wear his - and my (!) - scout-related T shirts all kinds of places, including to school.

 

What happened here?

 

Well he finally started having a really good time. The troop participated in what my son labeled "the coolest ever" activities in the spring and summer and after that he didn't seem to mind being publicly associated with scouts.

 

Now, he'd probably still never wear the uniform shirt for a bunch of reasons that have more to do with fit and style than with what the uniform stands for. And I guess he might change his mind again down the road. But for now, his whole image of scouting has changed because it became too much fun to deny. That right there is how we "save" scouting in my mind.

 

Lisa'bob

[gwd-scouter]

We are an unapologetic scouting family. We've been doing this for 14 years since our older son was in 1st grade. We have accumulated an entire dresser, dedicated only to scouting apparel, full of shorts, pants, belts, socks and too-many-to-count scout-related T-shirts. My sons have never had any problem wearing a Scout T-shirt to school. Good grief, after all these years they have more of them than regular T-shirts.

 

Sure, both my sons would have never worn their full uniform to school (at least not after Cub Scouts), but no one ever asked them to do that. They have and do wear them at appropriate times during meetings and on outings. And, yes, I have over the years had to push them a bit to wear their "class A" - the whole deal, you know, socks and all - they are currently or were teenagers. Anyone with a teenager knows that almost everything we ask them to do as parents is up for negotiation.

 

I will say that both of my sons would actually stand at a school assembly if asked to do so because they are Boy Scouts. I will also say that they are more than likely an exception. I have known other scouts through the years that wouldn't be "caught dead" in a scout uniform if they didn't HAVE to wear it."

 

The biggest difference I've seen in these scouts - those that admit to being a scout and those that won't - is that those that admit to being a scout, even if a bit embarrased by it, are those that actually get what this program is all about.

 

A few months shy of two years ago I stepped into the SM role for our troop. Our troop was a waist up uniform at best and no uniform at all at worst. In two years we are becoming a scout-led troop, adults model the uniform method fully and consistently, we take a trip somewhere EVERY month, and a sense of pride has begun to build in the boys and the troop.

 

The scout uniform debate will go on forever. I actually like the uniform and never thought there was such a huge problem until I joined these forums. But, I can without a doubt say that decreasing numbers in Scouting has nothing to do with the uniform.

 

Of course, that is just my opinion.

 

 

[brianbuf]

"But, I can without a doubt say that decreasing numbers in Scouting has nothing to do with the uniform. "

 

What is causing huge drops in enrolment? Even Burger King has updated their uniform.

 

[BrentAllen]

My personal opinion is the numbers dropped last year due to councils and districts cleaning up their rolls, after the membership number problems. If I'm wrong, we will know in April, I think, when the next year's numbers are published.

 

 

[dancinfox]

Let's look at what is cool. It seems to me that the media tells us what is cool. I remember when my son was young, he was into He Man. Does anyone remember He Man? I do because he had about $500.00 worth of this toy that was tossed out in the trash when the fad faded. Movies, toys, clothes, etc. are all fads. The advertising tells us what we want. Maybe Scouting should concentrate on the advertising of Scouting. Not an ad once a month, or an article in the paper, but a blitz in the media. Spend $10,000,000.00 on advertising. Show ads on every channel in every segment of the courtry. I bet if we did that, and the ads were in tune to what sells to youth, the numbers would go up everywhere. Scouting would be cool, because the media has told us so. The media tells us what breakfast foods to eat, so why not that we need to join Scouting, we need to go to summer camp. Let's all put in a $1,000.00 dollars to national and tell them it's for a high end media campaign. Let me know when you send yours in and I will do the same.

Dancin Fox