WHY???

[trlarue]

Why is it that most of the packs and troops in my area decided not to wear the full uniform? My son started last year as a tiger, and his pack just wanted from the belt up. We are changing packs this year for other reasons, and one thing I want to try to change is the so-called belt up policy. I am going to a leaders meeting next week first one with new pack. Should I bring it up then, or should I wait before bringing this up to them?

[acco40]

What I've witnessed is that most packs do the "belt-up" only (nearly 95%) and most troops (around 60%) do the field uniform properly. Why? Good question. I believe it is because of "tradition." Also, a few years ago, I don't think Tigers had uniform pants and with Webelos having the option of going to "Boy Scout" pants that most families (mothers being the biggest influence on the purchase IMO) looked around and did not see others with the pants so did not go that route.

[sweetspiritpamh]

I believe that most of the issue is the COST. My 3 children are very involved in this scouting program. Being in a color guard requires complete down to the socks uniforms. Which gets very expensive because of changing sizes. There pack, troop, and venture crew only required belts up uniform because they want to make sure that as many as possible can have the opportunity of being a member of the scouting program. I greatly promote the uniform closet idea of a place for outgrown uniforms but some clothes are pretty well used before getting grown out.

[msnowman]

I can't speak to why Packs/Troops in your area uniform the way they do, but I can give some insight as to why our Pack does.

 

Cub pants are expensive. For something that is worn once a week, they aren't an expense most parents can justify. For the price of one pair of Cub pants parents can buy 2 or 3 pairs of daily wear pants at Wal-Mart and to be honest that's the direction most of our families go. All of the boys have shirts, but all of those shirts are from the uniform closet, none of the boys have brand new ones.

 

However, Nephew's troop is a full uniform Troop. He doesn't go thru pants as quickly now as when he was a Cub. Plus the boys in the Troop (in theory) should be earning at least part of their uniforming money themselves. Also - at his age his jeans and pants are about the same price as his uniform pants, so there is no excuse for him not to be properly uniformed.

 

Good luck with changing the uniforming policy. The boys in full uniform look sharp and I agree that full uniforming should be the goal...as long as it isn't at the expense of the boys. Perhaps finding a source for experienced Cub pants/shorts/socks would help families that struggle w/ the expense.

 

(ETA - this topic has made me want to find that source for pants here...to help families promote the pride of full uniforming).

 

 

YiS

Michelle(This message has been edited by msnowman)

[SemperParatus]

"There is nothing more difficult to take in hand, more perilous to conduct, or more uncertain in its success, than to take the lead in the introduction of a new order of things." ~ Niccolo Machiavelli, The Prince (1532)

 

I would tread lightly for a few months, get to know folks and let them get to know you, serve together, enjoy the scouting experience together, share stories and life, then reconsider how important uniform pants really are to you.

 

[Vicki]

The Prince! I am always impressed and humbled by the well of knowledge that is my fellow scouters. I've also always felt Machiavelli was vastly underrated and unjustly maligned.

 

As to the sentiment, as I join another troop with my youngest and see some things that I'd like to ask the committee to ponder, I have been keeping it foremost in my thoughts. No matter what your credentials, until you are part of the group, the group has no reason to change at your behest and would probably end up resenting you and rejecting your thoughts. After all, they were getting along just fine before you came along, eh?

 

Wise counsel, SP!

 

Vicki

 

 

[Lisabob]

I'm in agreement with advice given already to tread lightly when suggesting changes to a group you are only just joining.

 

As for cubs and pants - well yes, cost does play a big role, and along w/ that, I found the quality and fit of the cub pants to be poor. But I think a bigger reason that many cub groups don't stress the full uniform while many more troops do, is that by the time we get to boy scouts, families that continue are much more committed to staying involved. In cubs, people come and go with greater frequency, and so uniform cost is perhaps a bigger deal.

 

(NOTE: I am not justifying the practice, just trying to answer the poster's question based on what I've witnessed over the years.)

 

I've also found a cub uniform exchange hard to get started. But for those who are interested in stocking a uniform closet from scratch, I've frequently run across good prices on cub pants on ebay while looking for boy scout pants/shorts. They seem to go for less money than boy scout pants, actually. Less demand I guess.

 

Lisa'bob

 

 

 

[funscout]

relarue, according to Baden Powell (as has been quoted in other posts), it's more important to get and keep boys in scouting, than it is to keep them in full uniform. Since this is a big deal to you, why don't you just use your son (and yourself, if you are a leader) as a role model, and have him wear the full uniform. He might be the only one, but then again, others might be influenced and choose to go with the whole uniform, too. I wouldn't get too hung up on what the boys are wearing. I'd be more concerned on how the Pack was run and what the boys were DOING. Fun, well-organized activities will keep kids in scouting more than uniforms ever could.

[SWScouter]

A few years back I was handed the pack's by-laws. There was a section on uniforming in it. There was a sentence basically stating that the pants weren't needed because of how, and I qoute, "unflattering" they were! I kid you not!

 

SWScouter

[kraut-60]

Most of the replies so far are right on the money as to why Cubs are rarely seen in full uniform. One reason you wont see is the Cubs refusal to wear uniform pants because most Cubs will wear whatever uniform parts their parents provide them.

 

I am a parent who also knows how fast a kid can outgrow something so I can sympathize with that line of reasoning. I do feel that a group of scouts in full uniform is worth what it costs to achieve as it builds esprit de corp.

 

The suggestion to be the example is the easiest one and the least confrontational. Many parents and scouts will opt for the waist up only as its usually what everyone else is doing.

 

By having your son and yourself in full uniform, you will raise the bar in your unit and just possibly start a move towards more scouts and leaders in full uniforms. However, dont be discouraged when the numbers arent as high as you would prefer, after all, a uniform is not required to be a member of the BSA.

 

I had to attend a scouters funeral today, my son and I both wore full uniforms to the service. We could have worn suits, but we felt that the man being honored was deserving of wearing our best uniforms. Apparently so did the scouts and leaders from his pack as they were also in uniform,most were in shirts only, but one leader and our district executive were in full uniform. The pack presented the colors and retired them...very moving, and very touching.

 

When I got up to leave, 2 scouts from our troop were seated in back of my son and myself,one scout in uniform and one in civvies who remarked he'd wished he had worn his uniform. I told him that he was a scout whether in uniform or out, he still said he wished he had worn his uniform.

 

trlarue; be the example. You can do it...well.

[BrentAllen]

(putting on my unofficial UP hat...)

 

trlarue,

I found myself in the same situation a few years ago. I grew up in a Pack and Troop that wore and respected the complete uniform - that is all I know. When my son joined the Pack at his school, they were waist-up. I wanted to change the policy, but waited for the right time. My son and I wore full uniform, but we were pretty much the only ones doing so.

Near the end of that first school year, they asked me to be ACM. I went to WB over the summer, and wrote a ticket item to improve the uniforming. When we started again in the fall, the committee agreed to give it a try. I made up a little game to introduce the new policy at our first Pack meeting. After the meeting, we received 2 complaints about the new policy - from ADL's. The CC pointed out we had discussed the issue at the planning meeting, and neither of them had attended. End of discussion. The boys took to the policy like fish to water. They really enjoy wearing the full uniform. Your argument is going to be with the parents (cost) and adult leaders who don't want to wear the pants.

 

Want some ammo? Check out Chapter 12 of the Cub Leader Book. Page 12-11 "How To Wear The Uniform":

Uniform parts should not be worn separately or with civilian clothing. The entire uniform should be worn or not at all. The pack does not have the authority to make changes to the uniform.

 

Same page, "How To Uniform Your Pack"

The pack committee should set the goal of 100% boy and adult leader uniforming. This can be accomplished several ways:...

 

Our own method, which seems to help - we have occasional quick inspections at Pack meetings. The Den that wins gets $2 gift cards to Brusters Ice Cream. The competition can be fierce!

 

Start a uniform swap and show the uniforms can be recycled and inexpensive. That will help with the "cost" concern. Good luck!

 

(UP hat off)

[scoutldr]

One of our long-time scouters (RT commish and Executive Board) likes to ask how many think that "half a uniform" is OK. Then he goes and changes and comes back in "Half" a uniform...the right half is BSA perfect, and the left half is civilian...he had a seamstress make it up for him. It really drives the point home.

 

I have also heard the argument that we wouldn't send our boys out on the baseball or football field wearing the proper uniform on top and blue jeans on the bottom...so why is it acceptable in Scouting? The coaches would never allow it...why do Scout leaders? You either "dress out" or you don't play.

[Fuzzy Bear]

trlarue,

 

"Why" is an indefintite question promoting creative responses.

So I'll share an earlier related column with you.

 

This same interesting question was bantered about regarding Duck Scouts. What reason for the belt-up uniforms? All it accomplished was for several of our beloved Forum members in getting down on each other and raising their hackles and getting their feathers ruffled. Most of us already know that when it comes to the uniform that pants are required even if they are unofficial, not so for our fine featherd friends.

 

I hope this helps. (* a little Homer goes a long way:)

 

FB

[FScouter]

A few years back I was handed the pack's by-laws

 

Writing stuff in bylaws does not make it so. The uniform is defined and controlled by BSA. Nobody and no unit is permitted to fiddle with it. Wear it or not, but please dont tolerate bylaws written to justify what is not permitted.

[CNYScouter]

I think B-P said it best:

 

Show me a poorly uniformed troop and I'll show you a poorly uniformed leader

 

and

 

There is no teaching to compare with example

 

Most of the Troops I have seen that don't wear full uniforms (or uniforms at all) have adult leaders who think the uniform is not important.

 

The first Troop we were with went to a Council-wide Camp-o-ree (I didn't attend due to other commitments). The 16 year-old SPL remarked to me that they were the only Troop he saw that was wearing jeans and t-shirts. Not a single person in the Troop, even the adults had brought even the uniform shirt to wear. He clearly knew it wasn't right. Not a single adult ever said anything about this.

 

In the second Troop we joined a 16 year old Scout told me that the Troop no longer attended District events because one of the reasons was they were embarrassed to attend as they were usually the only Troop there not wearing any part of the uniform. The adults in this troop very rarely wore a uniform, even the shirt. I was the only adult that owned uniform pants and was given dirty looks when I came to our first Troop meeting in full uniform.

 

This really shows that Scouts do notice, even the older ones. and know what should be done.