A CSP question

[msnowman]

After our 8 month winter in the wilds of Maine, its almost warm enough for Nephew to need his new short sleeve uniform shirt. As we gather the new insignia to go on it, we come to a question of CSP's. He likes to go w/ something that is more interesting than the normal KAC CSP. On his current shirt in the no longer made photoreactive patch (the regular KAC picture, all in white, that changes color in the sun). Our council designed a special one for Jambo that anybody who wanted to pony up the 5 bucks to buy could have. Before he sews it on (his first sewing venture) he wants to make sure he isn't going to have to take it off and put on a different one...he wants to only have to do it once.

 

So...can a non Jambo Scout wear a CSP that was made and sold by his council as a fundraiser for Jambo?

 

TIA

YiS

Michelle

[msnowman]

Oh yea and....(I can't seem to edit my post)....

 

The patch says 2005 National Scout Jamboree, Katahdin Area Council, Maine and has a different picture than the regular KAC CSP and includes part of the Jambo circle patchy thing that the people who went wear.

 

Thanks again

 

Michelle

[jr56]

You are getting into a grey area here. I've heard different opinions on this issue, the bottom line is that this is your council executive's call, you need to ask him or her for a ruling on it.

[emb021]

All-

 

This is NOT a 'grey area'.

 

Non-Jambo scouts can not wear JSPs (Jamboree Shoulder Patch). Their wear is restricted to Jamboree staff and participants to that particular jamboree from that council. The JSP gives the impression that one has gone to the Jamboree (note- visiting doesn't count. You must be a participant or staff) Also, I've heard that the wearing of the JSP should stop six months after the jamboree is over.

 

Your nephew needs to understand that the CSP is meant to identify the council he is from, and its an item that EVERYONE in the council should be wear that is the SAME. While many councils put out "Eagle Scout", "Commissioner", "WB", "FOS" and the like as fundraiser patches, really none of them should be worn. I won't wear any of those, but won't waste my time bugging others about it.

[jr56]

Actually, I had my council exec tell me after the last jamboree, that he didn't care if we left our jamboree CSP on after 6 months, as he has the right to do. As to the wearing of jamboree commemorative CSP's by non-participants, that I was not aware of, thanks for the info. By the way, nobody wastes anybodys time by asking questions, that is what this forum is for. If you want to chew people out for asking questions on a forum for that purpose, please go elsewhere.

[Trevorum]

Michelle,

An excellent question! Any CSP issued by a council is "legal tender" for shoulder wear. If it has the name of the council then it is legitimate council identification. Period. And forever. Yes, there is some difference of opinion as to whether or not Jamboree shoulder patches "expire" after 6 months, but the consensus is that JSPs may be worn as long as one wishes (what does expire are the temporary jamboree troop emblems, jamboree position patches and other temporary insignia).

 

That said, it is sort of a faux pas to wear a CSP one did not earn (or in the case of FOS, pay for).

 

I disagree with emb021. There is absolutely no rule that says everyone in a council should wear the same CSP. If the council has issued it, it's wearable.

[kraut-60]

I was in the Sinnissippi council and purchased and wore a very handsome Jamboree fund raiser CSP for most of 2005 and only (reluctantly) took it off to replace it with the CSP of the new Glaciers Edge council I now serve in.

 

The CSP was a green background with a red chevy suburban in red with a yellow FDL on the front dooor and it read "Home of the Suburban", along with a bright red border....one sharp CSP!

 

My council seems to tolerate the wearing of FOS,JSP and other commemorative CSP's and I'm glad we do as I enjoy seeing other sharp CSP's that are issued in our council....diversity rocks!

 

I have even designed a CSP commemorating the old council and plan to have it produced and sell as a fund-raiser,.. and yes, I'll probably wear one also as I am using the older olive/khaki green color as a background color and lettering and numbers executed in bright red with a traditional first class emblem in traditional colors as the center of the CSP. By desinging it thusly, I feel it could be worn on the older uniforms as the city-state strips (as CSP's were once known by) were the same colors I described from 1945-1955.

 

I like the retro look and have heard positive feedback from those who have seen my design.

 

I think the benefit of interest generated through diverse CSP use is positive and and could be used to promote uniforming as a whole. One flavor is never a big seller at the trading post,...but offer some flavors scouts want and they'll buy them, and wear them for pride of ownership or just to be different,..Hey as long as they're wearing the uniform its all good!

 

I guess I would say wearing any CSP that meets standards for CSP design should be good to go,and provided it is issued/authorized by the issueing council.

[emb021]

"I disagree with emb021. There is absolutely no rule that says everyone in a council should wear the same CSP. If the council has issued it, it's wearable. "

 

No, there is no such rule. But its something embodied in what a CSP is. Just because a patch is in the SHAPE of a CSP, doesn't make it a CSP.

 

A CSP is a 'Council Shoulder Patch', which is worn to identify the council you are part of. Its a patch that EVERYONE in the council should be wearing. Your SE is supposed to authorize what is your CSP, which should be freely available/sold to all in the council.

 

In recent years, council have gone overboard in creating a wide range of patches that while SHAPED like a CSP, really AREN'T. Creating Eagle Scout 'CSPs', or 'Commissioner CSPs' or 'Wood Badge' CSPs are all well and good, but these aren't really CSP *if everyone can't wear them*, which if they aren't Eagle Scouts or Commissioners or Wood Badgers, they can't (and in most cases aren't available/sold to everyone either). And too many SE make the mistake of authorizing many of these patches AS CSPs. They really should be treated as souvenir patches and put away in your collection of stuff, not worn on your uniform. In fact, in the collector realm, these are all refered to as "Shoulder Activity Patches", instead of CSPs.

 

Jamboree Shoulder Patches (JSP) fall into a similiar same realm. PER NATIONAL POLICY, you are only to wear them for 6 months before and after the Jamboree. Most don't even know this, and most don't follow it. Yawn. So what? My old Jambo uniforms still have the appropriate JSPs (but I stopped putting on JSPs about 2 Jambos back) However, unless you are a Jamboree participant/staffer, you have no more business wearing a JSP then a Jamboree patch. [personally, I get more annoyed with the youth who continue to wear their jamboree unit numbers, etc, after the Jamboree is over. Its more important to remove them then their JSPs]

 

There is a guy named Mike Walton, who maintains an excellent site on uniforms. He explains all of this, and backs it up with National policies.

 

[emb021]

"Actually, I had my council exec tell me after the last jamboree, that he didn't care if we left our jamboree CSP on after 6 months, as he has the right to do."

 

Its National policy that you don't. Your SE doesn't have the right to overrule it.

 

However, most people don't care (many cause they don't know this policy. National does a poor job of making it known). I don't care. I have a shirt for each jamboree I attended, with the Jamboree patch left on it, along with the appropriate regional jamboree patch and JSP. Doesn't bother me in the least if people keep wearing their JSP, so long as they are entitled to and wear it with the appropriate Jamboree patch.

 

"As to the wearing of jamboree commemorative CSP's by non-participants, that I was not aware of, thanks for the info."

 

Problem is that many non-participants (ie visitors) think they can visit the jamboree and this entitles them to wear the Jamboree patch on their uniform. A couple of jamborees back National put out a separate "visitor patch", but many visitors think they are entitled to wear it above the right pocket (it really goes ON the right pocket like any other temporary insignia).

 

"By the way, nobody wastes anybodys time by asking questions, that is what this forum is for. If you want to chew people out for asking questions on a forum for that purpose, please go elsewhere. "

 

????

 

Not sure where this came from. Nothing in this thread would lead anyone to say this. Prehaps you need to re-read stuff?

 

[Trevorum]

Well, I see we have a disagreement!

 

emb021 says, "No, there is no such rule."

 

OK, so you agree that there is NO RULE limiting what CSP may or may not be worn on the shoulder. Anything more is merely YOUR opinion.

 

"Just because a patch is in the SHAPE of a CSP, doesn't make it a CSP."

 

heh, heh. Well, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck ... That is to say: ANY patch that is (1) approved or issued by a council (2) in any of the four BSA approved shapes that (3) identifies the council name and (4) contains the fdl, the Scout Emblem, or "BSA" is ipso facto a Council Shoulder Patch.

 

Yes, there are sub-types of CSPs, including the SAP and JSP. But many councils (including my own) offer multiple and alternative designs of CSP simultaneously. These are not issued in association with any activity (such as Philmont, Wood Badge, etc.) and are therefore NOT classified as SAPs. Scouts and Scouters may wear whichever they like.

 

And National policy regarding Jamboree insignia specify that "temporary" insignia be removed after 6 months. If the Jamboree patch itself is not considered temporary (it's not), then I don't see how the JSP can be considered temporary. As I said above, what are temporary are the troop numerals, position insignia, etc.

 

And as I said, it is a minor breach of etiquette (but NOT a policy violation) to wear a CSP for an activity in which one did not participate.

 

Of course, you are free to disagree ...

[msnowman]

Wow, I didn't realize I was opening such a can. But, I'm learning plenty, including the fact that I will probably simply take his phote-reactive patch off his long sleeve shirt (or teach him how to) and have him stitch that one on to his short sleeve shirt and repeat the process in the fall when the temps are too cool for short sleeves. He is very image conscious and wants his uniform to be complete and correct. The white patch he wears has never been a problem and he'd rather skip risking being embarressed because he has the JSP that he isn't entitled to wear.

 

Thank you all, ask twice, sew once (well, if measure twice, cut once works for carpenters, why not that for sewers).

 

YiS

Michelle

[Trevorum]

Michelle,

Uniforms and insignia are always good for an argument. As a passionate CSP collector, it's an issue near and dear.

 

(say... um... you don't happen to have an extra one of those to trade, now do you? )

[Oak Tree]

Ah, Michelle, it's not so much that you just happened to pick a particularly wormy can. It's more the case that every question is a potential can of worms.

 

For the sake of staying on-topic, I'll say that I agree with Trevorum - if the council issued the CSP, go ahead and wear it.

 

Oak Tree