Defending the Uniform Police

[Lisabob]

"And, Lisabob, I was in no way trying to say that there are no females in scouting, or that they should be expected to do the sewing and cooking at campouts. Every female scouter I have ever met has been top notch in my book. It's just my opinion that the scout's mothers are better cooks than they are. "

 

LOL, I understand. Having seen a few of these guys "cook" I think it might be safe to say that a trained chimp would be better at it too...

 

Anyway I'm ok w/ that because they sure do appreciate a home cooked meal on Sunday night after a weekend of camping and fending for themselves.

 

Lisa'bob

 

 

[emb021]

"There is an adult Scouter in our district that wears a tan uniform shirt, both silver and green shoulder loops at the same time, An instructor patch on his left sleeve, service stars indicating 30 years of service with orange (Tiger Cub) backing, and a lodge flap for our councils lodge which he is not a member of."

"The Scouter is not and has not been on the membership list of the councils lodge for several years. He may have been a member at one time."

 

Sounds like a "Sash and Dash". That's a local term for a person who goes thru the OA Ordeal, gets his sash and flap, then never pays his dues, attends OA events, etc, but continues to wear the flap. Most if not all of the lodges in my state change their flap about every couple of years, sometime to catch these sorts (if you aren't wearing the current flap, are you currently up on your dues? Most OA members down here use velcro or the like to attach their flaps to the uniform, which makes it easy to change out flaps and not waste extra flaps on their extra uniforms).

 

[John-in-KC]

Having been an absolute pedant about uniforms on active and reserve service (the lieutenants of the battalion bet beers over who would have the spit-shiniest boots on Friday commander's inspection ... I often won the bet)

 

I find the debate over uniform policing to be silly. The last time I checked the book, uniform was a METHOD ... uniform perfection was not.

 

If you believe in the Patrol method, and in the Leadership Development method of Scouting, and if you are properly Youth Protection trained, you discuss any uniforming issues with the adult leadership of a Pack, Troop or Crew. The unit leadership was approved by and is known to the Chartered Partner. The CP has bought into them delivering and supporting the program to the Scouts. They did not buy into you, a Third Party ... unless you were invited to the function.

 

Do I work very hard to wear a correct and complete uniform, as an example to our young people? Sure do. Do I have differences from the uniform guide on my uniform? Sure do. On my Venturing COR shirt, I wear the lodge flap of my youth Ordeal lodge ... it was merged out of existence 33 years ago. It's a touchstone though, to why I serve as a Scouter.

 

On my Boy Scout RT staff shirt, do I wear the numerals of my Troop? Sure do. My primary registration is as COR for my chartered partner. My service to RT is a secondary registration. It's also a clear demonstration of my loyalty to my Chartered Partner ... whom I represent to Scouting ... and whom I represent Scouting to.

 

Have a good Memorial Day weekend. Take a moment to remember the fallen heroes from 231 years of US history!

[SaintCad]

I am new to scouting and just sewed the patches on to my den leader's uniform. Technically my uniform (and my son's) violated the rule that on the left sleeve that everything is touching (council patch, pack number, den leader patch) I did this because I saw how other den leaders would space out the patches so that the "trained" patch would be on the hem of the sleeve.

 

But on the other hand, our leadership is so lacksidasical in their uniforms that the cubbies are to. When I saw my son as a tiger last year (other leader in charge) playing with his neckerchief, I told him that it was a part of his uniform and should be proud to wear a Scout uniform properly. Every boy passed uniform inspection despite missing patches, incorrect socks, incorrect hats, etc.

 

So what is the middle ground? Do I have to move my Pack numbers up to remove a 1/2 inch gap? Sound pretty anal, but then if that is allowed, how much leeway should I give the boys?

[emb021]

Is there a middle ground? Well, it can depend on the person.

 

I'm a sticker for correct uniforming, but with me there are 'degrees' of what bothers me about others uniforms.

 

* Don't care level. stuff a little 'off'. patches attached not 'quite' right'. Space between unit numbers, etc. Trained patch at bottom of left sleeve instead of right below the office patch, etc. World crest a little off. Non-BSA hats that are still scouting hats. Non-BSA coats/outer wear.

 

* A bit annoying. trained patch without an office patch. service stars a bit off. Non-BSA non-scouting hats, non-BSA clothing items (pants, really).

 

* Really annoying. wearing stuff at wrong time (formal/dress items at wrong time, like merit sashes). Bad neckerchief wear (buttoning top button, not rolling neckerchief, etc). Incorrect service stars, knots, etc. Stuff you shouldn't be wearing any more (adults wearing youth stuff, etc). World Conservation Award in wrong location. Improper Jamboree patch wear, etc.

 

* Very annoying. Patches in totally wrong place. (equipment patches or swim wear patches on uniform, wrong sleeve) Patches you aren't entitled to.

 

I pretty much never say anything unless its at the 'really annoying' or 'very annoying' levels, and even then probably won't say anything. I typically phrase it along the lines of explaining how the items should be worn, and leave it to the person to correct it. (ie: "are you aware that what you're wearing indicates this...", or "it should be worn here/in this manner..."). Many people are just very ignorant on how things should be worn. And its annoying that some don't think that people should be informed of this. How else will they learn? (oh, yeah, their unit leaders, who probably don't know themselves will do this...)

 

[MVScouter]

Yes, this discussion about the UP's refuses to die. So here we are at round 3--or is it 30? Am I the cause? Look back at the thread that started in Feb. Purcelce copied that reply from Andy the Commish (which I still do not agree with)in which I got a little bent out of shape over a young scouter wearing 3 purple youth religious knots. I just thought I would refresh some memories. I hope you got a good laugh Purcelce. If you were a UC, I would have liked to see what you would have done in that circumstance. I will explain further.

 

I did briefly glance at my Unit Commissioners Field Guidebook and there was a discussion about UC's holding uniform inspections of the units they serve. When I get the time, I will quote the passages later. So, why is that there? Why is that a part of the UC's duties,

albeit, a small one. The BSA seems to think is proper and warranted.

So what is the beef? Everyone learns by example, young and old and if

" 3 purple knots", whether he knew better or (k)not, cannot adhere to

a few simple uniform policies, is that an example we as consciencious

scouters should ignore? And personally, I don't care if a scouter is a UC or not. I will stand by my decision to intervene in that situation. That scout, intentional or not, was not setting a good

visual example for his fellow troop members.

 

Kraut-60. I'm in your corner all the way. Great to read your insights into this "HOT" topic. It's hard to stay out of the discussion, isn't it. There doesn't seem to be much of a grey area here. That's what makes a forum such as this quite stimulating when we have so many dedicated scouters that are passionate about being apart of the greatest volunteer organization in the world. But com'on people, let's not be overly sensitive about being "oh so careful" about not hurting someone's feelings or putting someone in an embarrassing situation about their wrong patch placement. Yes, by courteous and respectful, but get the point across. I was once told by a hardcore

scouter that I was out of uniform because I wore a council pin on my collar. Was he nice about it? Hardly, but I didn't go running to my lawyer.

 

 

[purcelce]

MV I thought we buried the hatchet? But since you asked here it goes.

 

I've been a part of the Commisioner corp for over 4 years. I've been a UC and ADC (currently a UC waiting on a unit assignment). I have the Arrowhead Honor and the Commsioners' Key. Got my masters through the Commsioner's College. Now if I was in that situation, I would have not said a word. It's not the place of a UC (or any other adult leader) to put any youth in an embarssing situation in front of others, wether it be telling the kid personally or going to the SPL. I would have gone to the SM off to the side and let him know of the situation. That would have been the end of it. More than likely I would have left it alone. It's not my job to police uniforms. My job as a UC is to help the unit leaders with what ever they need.

 

Now that's out of the way, I would love to hang out with you by the campfire, drink coffee and discuss the politics of Scouting. Friendly discussions and debates help us see what others think, feel, and make sure we do what we are suppose to do: make sure the youth in scouting have the best program available.

 

No hard feelings at this end, and I hope there is not any at your end.

 

YIS

Cary P

[SaintCad]

Having been a Cub Denmaster for a whole week, I know that I do not know how the hierarchy works for Boy Scouts. I know that in the military the Chain-of-Command is sacred and there is a system for getting information to a soldier/sailor that you are not in direct command of.

 

That being said, let me take the teacher angle on this (That I've done for 10 years). Every adult on a campus is a teacher from Principal to Janitor. If something is wrong (like a uniform violation), any teacher can (and should) quickly and respectfully help the student (e.g. explain the uniform policy) and then go through appropriate channels for more in-depth help.

 

In this case, it is entirely appropriate for ANY adult scouter to talk to the scout about the uniform (first ask them if there is a reason they are wearing the uniform incorrectly. maybe the scoutmaster doesn't know, etc.). If the scout is wearing the patch incorrectly from lack of knowledge, then give them that knowledge (i.e. teach them the proper uniform usage). If they were given incorrect information or simply don't know, make a judgement call as to if the error is SO egregious that it needs to be corrected immediately. Whether it does or doesn't need immediate correction, find the source of the misinformation and correct it there.

 

 

[John-in-KC]

Saint Cad,

 

Again, welcome to the campfire. Pull up a log.

 

Here's the short version: The leaders of a Scout unit come from a community, and are known to the community. Leaders from other Scout units are not necessarily known to the community, and should work through the residnet adult leadership, unless we are talking true emergency. Correcting the proper wear of the uniform is not a true emergency.

 

Here's the long version:

 

Scouting, blessedly, is neither military nor even para-military Baden-Powell used elements of outdoor skills training and elements of citizenship training (including teamwork) to make Scouting what it is, and not an army wannabe.

 

BTW, I say that as a veteran

 

Scouting is, however, a licensed, or chartered, organization. Congress chartered the National Council, a non-profit corporation, with nationwide responsibilities. If you look at BSA's national boards, you will find prominent businesspeople, government people, and religious people, all coming together to serve our next generations.

 

The National Council charters local Councils ... area based non-profits. Same concept, local focus.

 

The local council issues a charter to a local organization: Often a service group or church, sometimes a business. That's the Chartered Partner. The chartered partner signs off on your adult leader application, and deems you suitable to serve the youth of your neighborhood. They do this together with the local Council, who, through local agencies, conducts a background check on you.

 

So, you, the leader in Pack 123, are known to the boys of your Pack.

 

A leader, within the circle of the unit, is the right person to discuss both the uniform method and the correct wear of uniform elements. Those who are outside the circle should not approach a youth they do not know. Approach an adult, instead.

 

My considered thoughts.

[purcelce]

Saint,

 

I served 20 years in the military and BSA is not a military organization.

 

All adults may have that right to discuss dress code violatins in a school setting, but not in the BSA. If there is a major GTSS violation then yes the adult needs to jump in and correct the situation, but for an adult to say "Hey Boy Scout, take that off that illegal patch" (no offense MV)" is not cool if it's done politely or not. That's the Scoutmaster's or other unit leader's job of the troop in "violation". Now talking to the SM in private about the situation is cool.

 

I have not see anything in writing in any of my BSA literature that says we as adults should be "correcting" uniform violations.

 

 

[SaintCad]

Like I said, I've been a teacher for ten years and a Den Leader for a week so I guess I look at things like this as "teaching moments". I would think the main thing would be to talk to the Scouts to find out who needs be taught - and this doesn't have to be confrontational. Instead of saying, "Take off that illegal patch!" The conversation could start out, Wow! You have 3 religious knots? Good Job! Has your Scoutmaster seen those?" If the answer is yes, the it's a trip to the SM. If not, "You know usually you only need to wear one knot and two stars (or whatever the correct insignia is). It save room for more knots. Keep up the good work Scout." Then a trip to the SM to have uniform details worked out.

 

See - not embarassing and the Scout (and maybe SM) learns something. Then again, it's probably a horrible breach of protocol.

[FScouter]

SaintCad has a good perspective on this. Teaching the wearer of the uniform can be done without being confrontational. There is no protocol, just be nice. We all have a responsibility to wear the uniform correctly. It's really not our uniform anyway; it's the BSA uniform. As members of BSA, we do have a responsibility to help ensure the uniform is worn correctly and if that involves teaching a member of another unit, so be it. There is a few lines somewhere in the literature to that effect, and if someone really wants to know where that is, I'd be happy to take the time to look it up.

[SR540Beaver]

Ditto to Saint and FScouter. I have always strived to be correctly uniformed. I can not recall ever playing uniform police to a scout or scouter....although I have wanted to a number of times. Where did people ever get the idea that you can not or should not "clue" someone in if their uniform is wrong? I can understand minding your own business, that is what I do. But in all the training and study I've done, I've never seen a policy that says you can't inform a person when their uniform is wrong. What I have seen is documentation from BSA on how it IS to be worn.

[kraut-60]

Thanks MV for your feedback, sorry I have been away for several days and only today seen your last post. Heres a quick tale on who the UP may be, sometimes they arent even scouts or scouters!

 

When; Monday morning, Memorial day 8:45am

Where;Outside the local American legion post

Who; Local radio announcer, my son and myself

My son was in full uniform and wearing his MB sash, however he chose to wear his short sleeve shirt that had his 1st class rank (he is a Star),and was being interviewed live on local radio. The interviewer noted "You have 9 MB's but you are only a 1st class scout? Should'nt you be a Star scout with that many MB's?" My son replied, "I am a Star scout, but my Star patch is on my long sleeve shirt and its too hot today to wear that one, and my Dad hasnt got another Star patch for me yet,..Right Dad?" At this point the interviewer pointed the mike my way and said "You must be the dad,right?" "Yes, guilty as charged" I replied. The interviewer went on to state (while on a live radio feed) that he had been a scout and was aware of what scout uniforming was and is and thought that the scoutleaders in our community were in his words "doing a great job as the scouts looked sharp in their uniforms".

 

All that the other leaders and myself had done was to be in full correct uniforms. One thing I have to point out was that a lady serving as a troop committee member of one of our towns other troops was in a full uniform, and she is new to the position. I went up to her and asked to shake her hand. She was puzzled, but I told her how rare it is to see a committee member in just a hirt much less a full uniform.

 

So, fellow campfire members, usual suspects, aspiring UP applicants....who was the uniform police in this strange but true adventure?

 

PS, lets start something....seek and thank all pack,troop,crew,ship committee members in uniform and thank them for being of service and in uniform!

[Beavah]

PS, lets start something....seek and thank all pack,troop,crew,ship committee members in uniform and thank them for being of service and in uniform!

 

Yah, a much nicer thing to do than approach a strange kid and start correctin' him on the uniform he's proud of.

 

MV, as a Unit Commish never, ever would I approach a boy about a uniform issue. Indeed, I'd expect a good SM or CC to escort me to the door if I did so. I'd be happy to help a troop's youth with a uniform inspection if they asked me, though, or to answer an adult leader's questions. As a guest, I tend to uniform the way the troop does. If they do shirts and jeans, I'll try to remember to do a shirt and jeans at least half the time. Better to support their use of the uniform method and build respectful rapport than not.

 

Mostly, I'm happy if I see a unit where the boys get the shirts on and are proud of the accomplishments they wear. I'm happier still if they all get into the same color of non-denim pants, and I'm overjoyed if they customize the uniform a little bit to make it special.

 

Meanwhile, there are seven other methods that are more important to our aims for me to spend my time helping with.