uniform shirt only?

[sunsetandshadow]

I have read many of the posts and I can tell this may be a hot button issue for some but I really need some advise. Our pack currently requires unifrom shirt only. No hat, neckerchief,pants,ect. It is a cost issue. We started this pack 5 years ago so we have no uniform closet and no hand me downs. My son had the cub scout shorts that he wore for several years but he was the only one. Now that they will be starting their own troop I want the boys to wear the full uniform. The issue is once again the cost. Two boys have a shirt and they will have a hat and neckerchief (if the boys decide to have one). The only weay they wil have pants is if we were to have some sort of fundraiser to buy them. And most parents want the shorts since they will last longer and won't outgrow them height wise as fast as pants. But if we buy shorts then they will still be back to wearing jeans when the weather gets cold next winter. So we thought about raising enough to buy pants and shorts. These would then go into a clothes closet when they were outgrown for the younger scouts coming up. My question is has anyone tried this and what fundraisers have you used? WE are talking about 3-4 boys participating. They are 10-11 years old. Wr have tried first aid kits and they did not do very well. Carwashes are not popluar either. It's hard enough getting anyone to buy the overpriced popcorn. Any ideas on fundraisers that meet bsa quidelines of course?

[anarchist]

sunsetandshadow,

 

not meaning to rain on your parade but the "reason" for the fund-raiser you are thinking about planning has some "issues". The first is you are raising funds for what is personal property...boys clothing...not a scouting activity or even troop equipment. I can see some folks having dificulty with the concept...Then I am not sure BSA will sign off on such a purpose...Your scouts would not be able to honestly say "it was for scouting"...for the scouts yes but for their personal use... I will be interested to see others take on this.

 

"Uniform cost" is a false argument for all but a handful of units...while there are some comunities (gulf coast strikes me as a prime example) that have wide-spred money issues, if you look at the situation in many cases its just plain 'B.S." (no offense for those out there who are having money 'issues'). It is money the parents/scouts are chosing not to spend....a value judgement not an economics issue.

 

Having come from a family with an alcoholic father, no extra money and having to pay for my own uniform and gear... I can "talk the talk and walk the walk"(etc).

 

Boys can do odd jobs to raise money for their gear. Two large bags of crushed cans now brings $10.00 from the "junk" folks...collecting cans can buy a pair of pants in one or two months...They can ask for help from family members at birthday and Christmas time.

 

$36-$38 for pants is not alot of money in this day of $135.00 sneakers and $399.00 game systems (that are out of date four years later). Many of the families not wanting to spend the money for pants think nothing of buying $55.00 skate board pants or other pricy "urban wear".

 

Last year my sons travel soccer team "charged" each family for a new uniform, socks etc- $230 not including shoes... and this has been a near constant every other year for eight years!

$100 for a uniform that lasts 6 or more years seems like a value to me...

 

As to the shorts vs. long pant battle...if the boys are going to grow out of the uniform it will be in the waist line...BSA puts about six or seven inches of 'extra' pant leg on those pants...you just let out the hem a couple of inches each year...(thats not to say I like the pants...they are poorly designed for out door play...but thats a fight for another day).

 

Finally if dollars really are the issue...there are alternatives...ebay, salvation army thrift stores, yard sales, family contacts, other troops...and yes even this web site...several of us have sent our son's out grown "extra" uniforms to help other units.

 

I am a firm believer in the uniform... I think it helps the boys see themselves as a distinctly different "group"...but I tend to agree it is "all or nothing"...A troop adopting just a scout shirt and jeans does not build a sense of "unit" or "belonging" ...just going half way seems to be the message.

 

talk it out with the parents

 

and good luck

anarchist

[sunsetandshadow]

Thanks for responding but it seems like you and i live in different communitites. I am able to buy my son his uniform but not everyone here is able. 90% of the kids in our school recieve free or reduced lunch and breakfast. Many kids go to the school nurse to get new clothes when they rip their jeans at school and it is their only pair. We have school drives becasue some parents do not buy their kids crayons and siccors and other items on the back to school list. Not to mention the shop with a cop program that helps kids get christmas presents during the holidays. We do not have football or soccor. Our biggest sport it baseball and we get community sponsors to buy the kids t-shirts that they pair with jeans for their sport uniform. There are families with no phone service that teachers stop buy their house if they want to discuss the children. This is an economicly depressed area. We also have many families that do not believe in welfare and therefore do not accept government assistance so they scrounge for every dollar. Ther are dads that go around collecting scrap metal and cans as there regular income. We have looked into collecting cans but since we are so rural we need a way of transporting them and since 10-12 years old do not drive extra job oppourtunites are rare.

 

We do not buy the expensive game systems. I shop the thrift stores for good hand me downs. We do not have cable or satelite or use credit cards. WE are thrifty and we are a large family with 5 children (the oldest is 10). There are many large families here with 4,5,6 even 8 children. So spending 40 dollars on boy scout pants on one child means spending it on the other and getting those girl scout uniforms and the accesories like hats, necekrchiefs, socks, ect. It can and does get expensive. I have 3 scouts and I know one other boy has three sisters that are scouts.So saying the money issue is "BS" is off the mark.

 

AS far as the personal property issur goes, i did say in my post than any uniform pants or shorts purchased would be on loan an dthen returned when they outgrew them to a newly established clothes closet. I only brought this issue up since so much importance goes into "oroer uniforming". If we do not have a fundraiser then we will just have to accept the shirt and whatever pants as the uniform as the parents have already said they cannot afford them and will not buy them. I understand how they feel since boys pants at walmart are 12$.

[hops_scout]

From the sounds of it, you guys therefore do not have the economic means to start a new troop. Maybe you should think about joining another troop who possibly has an established uniform closet. I can't imagine the program if you can't afford the basic uniform items. How, then, are you going to be able to afford camping equipment, or even each individual trip?

 

Sounds like some rethinking needs to take place before another new troop is started and set up for possible failure.

[SueM]

you might suggest trying ebay-ing for uniforms..sometimes you can get good deals there. Or why not try running an article in a local paper requesting that anyone who may have a "gently used" pair of pants donate them to the troop?? Build up your troop closet this way!

 

Sue M.

[kittle]

Joining an established Troop might not be the answer either. If their comunity is a rural aread, the nearest Troop could be miles away which can be a hinderance. I drive my son 25 miles one way to his Troop meetings. We usually make 7 trips a month, 4 meetings, 1 shakedown, 1 to drop of for campout and 1 to pick up from campout. There are months when we make 2 or 3 other trips for Scouting. A lot of months we also drive to the campout, usually husband or I (or both) will stay if they need the additional adult. I know a lot of parents in the small town that I live outside of that will not drive their child that far.

 

 

In the Pack that we stared 3 years ago, only 2 (of about 15) would have been Cub Scouts if it hadn't been so close.

 

Pack to the topic, my son's Troop only requires shirt and scarf. But, my son has the pants too. I found them for $6 either on Ebay or at a yard sale.

 

A good fundraiser that our Pack has had really good luck with is Krispy Kreme donuts. We sell them for $5 a dozen and make $2.50.

 

Why can uniforms not be considered Troop equipment the same as a tent> It is for the use of the Scout.

[MaScout]

I understand where you're coming from! But I also thought some of the uniform police here would blow a gasket.

 

To join an established troop is economically unfeasible, as you would then have to DRIVE there, and there is no money for gas. To purchase the full uniform is NOT an individual option, as the boys simply do not have the money for it. Young people in rural areas do not have the option of "getting a job", because there just aren't any for a 12-year-old to get!

 

Many of the posters here simply do not understand what it is like to live like this. They keep saying, "Well, for sports..." Well, I understand. Because there IS NO "for sports"! These boys play high school football in the only pair of shoes they own. They wear the same shoes for football, to school, and to church! They don't spend money on sports. If it costs, they simply don't participate. Sometimes these families literally go to bed hungry! They sleep in one room in the winter to reduce heating costs.

 

It is difficult to wrap your mind around proud poverty if you haven't experienced it. But it is real. And it doesn't allow for extras. And it doesn't allow for hand-outs.

 

Uniforming is ONE of the methods of Scouting. If it comes down to it, and I have to determine if it is more important to have a boy in full uniform or to have him in Scouts, I'll pass up the full uniform. To the uniform cops--I apologize if this upsets you, but I DO NOT apologize for my stand. Scouting is for and about the boys!

 

We run a "uniform drive" every few years, and store those uniforms for loan. We advertise in the local paper and generally get good response. We ask the boys to have a shirt. We try to help them get one. Sometimes, especially for Cub den meetings, we have them wear Scout T-Shirts. These can sometimes be purchased from the Council office as "leftovers" from Day Camp for $1-$2. We keep a few pairs of shorts in assorted waist sizes. Just a few pairs will fit most boys with a belt, and you don't have to worry about the length. Whoever has a need of them uses them, then returns them. We don't use uniform pants for many things...Eagle Board of Review or a Council Training.

 

In my honest opinion (IMHO), if the boys are all uniformed similarly (uniform shirt and jeans), they look fine. Sure, the olives would be nice, but so would steak for supper. I would save the limited resources to purchase merit badge books and Scout handbooks.

 

You might also check with your District or Council office and see if they have any provisions for helping uniform underprivileged Scouts. Our District office will pay for a shirt, patches, and a handbook if needed. I try to take care of this locally whenever I can, because 95% of our Scouts can't afford it, and I don't want to be there with my hand out all the time.

 

Hang in there! Good luck if you decide to pursue the full uniform...I admire you for wanting to help the boys like this. But if you decide to spend the limited resources on other things, don't let the uniform cops send you running!

 

I realize I didn't offer suggestions for fund-raisers, but will a fund-raiser really work if you are in an economically depressed area? Wal-Mart (if there is one nearby) will sometimes "match" a fundraiser up to $250 if you hold it at their store. K-Mart & Wal-Mart will often donate supplies if you ask.

 

Your trips might be "meager" compared to what some here are accustomed to, but it is an opportunity these boys wouldn't otherwise experience. Hit up some of those stores for supplies, ask your families what they can spare out of their kitchens, camp where they don't charge you to be there, kids bring the food from home, etc. It can be done on a very low budget.

 

Well...I'll get off my soapbox. Sorry all! But I am very sensitive about this issue, and most people really, truly cannot understand.

 

Scout Ma

[Kudu]

I agree with MaScout, if you are just starting a Troop in a poor area, the money could be better spent on things much more important than Scout pants (which are over-priced, ill-fitting, and poorly constructed). Sleeping bags, tents, handbooks, rain coats, food money for campouts, boots, a knife. After that maybe find some olive-drab colored pants that can also be used for school, see:

 

http://inquiry.net/uniforms/bdu.htm

 

We are currently earning money for a canoe trip by selling candy bars. They cost us 50 cents in bulk and we sell them for a dollar each. The profit goes into the Scout's individual accounts. There is no BSA rule against fund-raisers for personal equipment.

 

Thrift stores around here charge about $5-7 for used green cargo pants in good condition, that is the profit on ten candy bars.

 

Kudu

http://kudu.net/

 

[Newbie Den Leader]

Kudu,

 

The uniform pants are over-priced, but the quality, fit, and construction are just fine. I have a pair and they are durable, comfortable, and they don't rip anywhere. The illustration you give is typical of adults who buy them too small and wear them too tight. I see this often at adult leader meetings. The pants are supposed to be "relaxed-fit" for ease of movement, but for some strange reason, some adults like to wear them two or three waist inches too small.

 

 

 

Sunset,

 

Our cubs wear jeans with their shirts and they look just fine. Everyone looks the same and there are no issues. We don't require pants and don't force it. Non-uniform navy blue pants look good too. I would encourage your scouts to go ahead and get neckerchiefs and belts. You already have the shirts, just a few more dollars will help complete the uniform from the waist up. I have no advice on fundraisers - let the boys outfit themselves the best they can.

[Lisabob]

Sunsetand shadows,

 

Well yes, I guess it is fair to say you touched on one of those "hot button" issues for some people in this forum.

 

Personally I'd take a pragmatic approach for the time being. If all you can swing right now is the shirts, then fine, start with those and worry about the pants, belt, etc. later. There will be people here who disagree but you know what, they aren't in your unit. Also, while my son's troop IS full uniform and they do occasionally get comments about it (positive ones), I have never been to a scouting event where anybody spoke ill of a group of boys who were doing their best, but who were not in full uniform. Once your unit is up and running the boys may decide they want to be a full uniform troop but in the meantime you have plenty of other things to focus on. You know what they say about Rome not being built in a day!

 

I wonder if you may have better luck with donations or fundraisers once your troop is firmly established. From other posts, it sounds like you have a ways to go before you are there, and people might be reluctant to support a fundraiser for a group that doesn't yet have its feet under it. (Not saying you won't get there - just maybe focus on the more important things for now).

 

Ma Scout - well said.

 

Lisa'bob

[dan]

As some of the older posters, err I mean the Senior Forum Member, here now, I have been very vocal about the uniform in this forum. I am a big believer that the uniform is a method that should be followed. But in this case I would suggest you try to guide the scouts to shirt only, no hat or neckerchief. Take the monies saved from hats and neckerchief and neckerchief slides and have them use it to purchase everyday needs. Have you seen the price of BSA hats? If you and the scouts are set on having hats, try to find some plain ones all one color, this should cut the price in half for the hats. If you going to have a fundraiser forget the pants. Do you have any tents? Any troop gear? Mess kits? You do not need much to go camping, but you are going to need a few things. You do not need tents, you could build shelters out of plastic cloth, you are going to need something to cook in, do you have any pots or pans? Do you have the one necessity for the leaders a coffee pot?

You are planning on camping right?

 

Kudu

Great post but some of your message get lost when you had to include a slam with a great message.

[AwHeck]

You also might check with your council office. I know that ours have some used uniforms available for a reduced price - it's not advertised and you have to ask. Ask at the SCOUT OFFICE, not the SCOUT SHOP.

[sunsetandshadow]

Thanks to all who responded. I think I will try ebay to see if we can find any good deals.

 

As MaScout pointed out those who live in a rural area do not have as many options as some city folk are accustomed to. The closest Troop is 60-50 miles away one-way. It takes about 80 minutes to drive there if you do not travel during rush hour traffic. The choice is start our own troop or quit scouting. I do not think the principals of scouting would support the argument that this area is to poor to have a scout troop.

 

And when we go camping everyboy brings his own equipment which is very minimal. The scout brings his own sleeping bag (or bed roll if he can't afford a sleeping bag) and his own food (a pack of hotdogs and some fruit maybe), and most everything else is taken from nature. Some have tents and some use tarps and ropes tied between trees. It is very back to basic and a very rewarding experience for the boys. They do not need a lot of camping eguipment. We roast on a stick or one roll of aluminum foil can go a long way. Most places we camp at are places we hike to as so the boys must carry everything in. We travel light. And many just wear the camo they have when they go camping/hunting with their dads. I have read another post here about how the boys are not suppose to wear camo - I have never heard such a thing and no one else here has either. Camo is probably the clothing item most kids here do own.

 

When I started this post I had no idea anyone would object to raising money for uniforms since so many seem to view the complete uniform as a necesary. I also thought it would serve as a good visual incentive to other boys and younger scouts on the importance of proper uniforming in scouting. Both my husband and myself are former military and we thought proper uniforming would help the troop in many ways.

 

I appreciate everyone taking the time to comment. I am always open to learning.

 

 

 

[MaScout]

Thought of something else...oftentimes big companies are "required" to make charitable contributions. They offer sizable grants to various groups in the communities they serve. You can ask at large companies if they offer grants, and if they do, how you apply for them. We routinely receive grants from our local electric and gas company. There are others out there who offer something similar. Check with any local fast food places -- ours is super about supporting the young people in our home town and have even sponsored boys to camp. Will your grocery stores offer a discount for food purchased for camp outs? It never hurts to ask. The worst that can happen is that they say no. (Asking can be HARD if you are like me. But I keep reminding myself that is for THE BOYS! That makes it easier.) And we DID get equipment donated from Wal-Mart AND K-Mart.

 

When we started a new troop, we used all borrowed or donated equipment. It's amazing what can be done with "stuff" out of a variety of kitchens and closets!

[Eamonn]

I think if you were to do a "Search Forums" on uniforms you would find that it is a hot topic.

Correct and proper uniforming should be the goal of each and every troop. I do see how the price of uniforms is making this really hard.

I wonder why Troops go with the shirt only idea?

Why not go with the shorts and socks??

This way the Scouts would be in correct uniform when it comes to the activity uniform and I think you will have more luck getting the parents to take the next step -Buying the shirt.

As for fund raising ideas???

What might work in our area could or couldn't work in yours.

Our local schools sell candy bars and it's almost impossible for us to sell them.

We seem to do well with frozen pizza kits and later this year we are holding a yard sale and a Sea Scout Dinner and Ball.

We didn't make any money on our youth dance, but I didn't think we would. It was however a good promotional thing and we recruited a few more Scouts because of it.

Good Luck and keep on keeping on.

If you decide to not make uniforming a goal; it's never going to happen. If you keep it on the back burner?? Who knows maybe a year from now or maybe five years from now everything will fall into place.

Eamonn.