If the de la Renta Uniform is Outmoded . . .

[Eamonn]

I was looking at the Scouts Canada site a few weeks back. While I might be wrong it seemed to me that they have adopted a "Non-uniform -uniform" Members can pick what they want to wear from a selection of different items. I'm not really sure how it works.

In most of the other countries that I have visited the stand out item of a Scout uniform is the neckerchief.

I wonder what would happen if we were to do away with all the other parts of the uniform and just use a neckerchief?

We could use different colors or different wiggles or slides for rank or maybe for program. Maybe if we went with different woggles or slides we could have units choose the color, size and material.

Scouts who didn't want to be seen wearing the uniform outside of meetings could just fold it up and stick it in the pocket or wherever.

I'm not sure how to go about wearing Merit Badges? Maybe we could just stamp them on the neckerchief? Of course they wouldn't be Badges any more just Merit Stamps.

Hey it's just an idea!!

Eamonn.

(Of course the Membership fee would be a lot more to cover the loss of revenue. - You can't please everyone.)

[AvidSM]

I agree with SeattlePioneer in that ANY uniform will produce unhappy complaints. However, what the heck were they thinking when they let some fashion designer dictate the design?! It's obvious that FORM was greatly sacrificed over FUNCTION.

 

How do we let National know that we're not happy with it and it's time for change? I think they know - they are just not willing to admit their mistake and move on - step one in any twelve step process.

 

OldGreyEagle's post makes a lot of sense. Get the boys input and let them vote on it. This could be a big boon for Boys Life and for all the big outdoor stores. National should be thinking synergy here.

 

The best reason I could give National for a redisign is technology. Look at all the new fabrics that are out there now. I was new technology the forced the US to redesign it's currency. Why not the BSA?

 

As for using foil to prevent them from reading our minds - it works best if you line the inside of your scout hat with it - shiny side OUT!

[NapowanRed]

I don't se the purpose of making a new uniform. I don't know about your troops, but in ours the only time a uniform is worn is at meetings, on the ride to and from campouts, and at camporees. The rest of the time people wear basically what they'd wear at home...

 

There really are no problems with todays uniform. Sure, it'd be nice if the shorts were a little looser and there wasn't as much bunch in the crotch of the pants, but other than that it's fine...

[BrentAllen]

The only problem I have with the uniform is the pants. I can go to REI and buy a pair of outdoor pants, made by Columbia, with zip-off legs and ton of features CHEAPER than I can buy uniform pants at the Scout Shop. The color is fine. As far as economy, these pants are 2-in-1 - shorts and long pants. It would be so simple to either contract the pants out to Columbia or someone similar, or just copy the universal design.

 

I wouldn't mind seeing other options offered in correct materials - poly or fleece. There is no reason Scouts can't be using/wearing the latest in camping equipment and uniforms - why are we 20 - 25 years behind?

[Kaji]

The uniform was redesigned two years before I was even born, so suffice it to say that it's the only one I've ever worn as a regular uniform (unless you want to count the blue one from my Cub Scout days).

 

Personally, I've never found there to be any real issues with function, and have worn the long-sleeved uniform shirts in all weather in relative comfort (no fan of the short-sleeved shirts, but that's just me). If it's cold in winter, to me that's a sign that you're not dressed properly. Throw on a pair of long-johns and a t-shirt under it. The epaulets help to hold the OA sash in place, and make it much easier IDing adult leaders when participating in events such as camporees/Scouting on the Mall/etc. Switching to epaulets also allowed a redesign of the Den Chief cords so that the shoulder doesn't get torn up from repeatedly sticking the pin from the tab into it.

 

In the end though, if the uniform gets redesigned, any older uniform is still allowed to be worn so long as it's complete (as best as I understand the policy). Hence the reason why you'll still see some SMs going to camporees in the old olive shirts with community/state strips and green mylar SM/ASM patches. If the uniform gets redesigned and you don't like it, you're always free to continue wearing the present one, no?

[Newbie Den Leader]

In my district, I don't hear any complaints about the design of the uniform shirt. Folks are pretty happy with them. Occasionally, I do hear complaints about the uniform pants concerning the way they fit. Alot of adult leaders in my district will wear pants of similar color that fit them better. They need to offer uniform pants that have a more "relaxed" fit in the seat and legs, and stonger seams at the crotch and hip areas would also be helpful. The $45 - $55 dollar price tag for a pair of sub-standard quality pants is not very appealing to anyone.

 

Personally, I like the overall unform design much better than the uniform of the 1970's that had the collarless green shirts and the bland matching color pants. Even with their drawbacks, today's pants have a nice color contrast and much more funtionality than the old ones I wore as a Boy Scout 30 years ago.

 

[Kudu]

In my district, I don't hear any complaints about the design of the uniform shirt.

 

In some parts of the world the Scout Neckerchief is the only part of the Scout Uniform that a Scout can afford, but even so you can tell that they are Scouts from a distance.

 

We are losing this important universal Scouting icon because the BSA's dress designer moved the neckerchief away from its proper position over the collar so that he could design the shirt to accommodate his fashion sense. In this location the Neckerchief no longer shades the neck or wicks away sweat. Thus it is now a mere fashion accessory and expendable.

 

The current design of the BSA shirt along with the less than half-sized Neckerchiefs is the reason that we no longer have the traditional appearance that is so striking in Norman Rockwell paintings.

 

Personally, I like the overall uniform design much better than the uniform of the 1970's that had the collarless green shirts....

 

Ouch! Other Scouters report that they did not like the collarless shirts either. I have experimented with cutting the collars off tan shirts and find them a lot more comfortable than tucking them under.

 

As for the contrasting colors, this seems be be closer to Baden-Powell's design, as the following drawings indicate:

 

http://www.1sttarrantbpscouts.org/Info.html

 

Kudu

 

[Newbie Den Leader]

Kudu,

 

How the neckerchief is worn is a matter of personal preference or Troop preference. I see Scouts in my area wear them either over or under the collar.

 

There is no evidence of the "icon" neckerchief going away that I can tell. It's a regular part of the uniforms around here. One exception is adult leaders tend to avoid them for less formal gatherings or active outdoor activities. Overall, Troops enforce them as a part of the full "Class A" uniform.

 

--Jeff

[Kudu]

There is no evidence of the "icon" neckerchief going away that I can tell.

 

By "icon" I mean the Norman Rockwell image, not the indoor, under the collar custom which James West hated so much :-)

 

http://www.normanrockwellvt.com/BoyScouts/b040.gif

 

http://www.normanrockwellvt.com/BoyScouts/b038.gif

 

http://www.normanrockwellvt.com/BoyScouts/TheDailyGoodTurn.jpg

 

http://www.normanrockwellvt.com/BoyScouts/b031.gif

 

Of course at this time the whole Scout Uniform was an outdoor icon, and the Neckerchief was promoted as part of a robust tradition that went back to the "buckskin pioneers" and the later "plains scout" settlers, see:

 

http://inquiry.net/uniforms/neckerchief/swn1.htm

 

One exception is adult leaders tend to avoid them for less formal gatherings or active outdoor activities. Overall, Troops enforce them as a part of the full "Class A" uniform.

 

Yes, the de la Renta Uniform is the polar opposite of the Traditional Uniform.

 

Kudu

[Newbie Den Leader]

Polar opposite of the traditional uniform? I don't think so. Except for some cosmetic adjustments over the decades, it's basically the same uniform my dad and grandad wore. The pants, of course, have gone through the most change in appearance.

 

What is the traditional uniform? The military-style that was worn in the 10's and 20's? The Rockwell paintings are great and inspiring, but I have noticed that those old neckerchiefs were much too big. But hey, that was the style and they enjoyed it.

 

[Kudu]

Polar opposite of the traditional uniform? I don't think so. Except for some cosmetic adjustments over the decades, it's basically the same uniform my dad and grandad wore.

 

That may be true for the Cub Scout Uniform which was designed for the indoors. The Scout Uniform is the polar opposite in terms of function. William Hillcourt wrote that the all-green BSA Uniform was designed to be worn outdoors where it blended in with the colors of forest. The current Uniform was created by a dress designer for cosmetic indoor use.

 

What is the traditional uniform?

 

In most of the world this would be the khaki shirt and dark blue pants as designed by Baden-Powell and worn until the world-wide WOSM program popularizations in the late 1960s. The Traditional Uniform is changed only for health & safety concerns (i.e. cotton), advances in technology, and economic reasons (like the availability of off-the-shelf uniform shirts and pants).

 

In the BSA the Traditional Uniform would be an outdoor Uniform in the context of the Methods of Scouting designed by William Hillcourt and practiced until his program was gutted by popularists in 1972.

 

The military-style that was worn in the 10's and 20's?

 

Well, they had the right idea: abundant, inexpensive, state-of-the-art outdoor clothing. The problem of the ugly BSA hothouse pants could be solved most easily by having them manufactured by the same factories that produce "military-style" olive-drab BDUs down to size six (6). Put a few BSA buttons on them and presto, you have outdoor cargo pants that boys want to wear, are more comfortable, more practical, and better constructed. See:

 

http://www.inquiry.net/uniforms/bdu.htm

 

Note on the above URL, that for the same retail price (but not the same profit margin, I am sure) you can find in good outdoor companies like REI and EMS, off-the-shelf high-tech breathable nylon outdoor clothing.

 

The Rockwell paintings are great and inspiring, but I have noticed that those old neckerchiefs were much too big.

 

I have to admit I have never heard that complaint before :-) Usually adults find that the "half-necker" size is too small.

 

The Traditional Neckerchief size of 32" (square) was designed for practical use as an arm sling, head bandage, and 21 other first aid uses, plus 10 general and 23 Scouting uses, see:

 

http://www.inquiry.net/uniforms/neckerchief/matching.htm

 

But hey, that was the style and they enjoyed it.

 

Like the rest of the Scout Uniform, style followed function. The Traditional Scout Uniform was designed to be a practical icon of outdoor adventure, and that is why they enjoyed it :-)

 

Kudu

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Way back when I was a scout, after Brownsea Island but before the demise of the red berets (sigh) the neckerchief I wore was a perfect sling and when tied right, made a great brace for a sprained ankle. Now, I realize different parts of me have grown since then, but My ankles havent and I remember watching an ASM demonstrate the ankle wrap on himself. Cant do that now. I would like a bigger neclerchief.

 

Perhaps cashing in on the "retro" look popular in design, you know, the PT cruiser, Chevy's HHR etc perhaps the uniform could be redone with a look back to the past. How about a return of the old 4 pocket tunic and the breeches? All done in tech cloth of course.

 

Another alternative would be a simple metal badge, not a tiny thing, but good sized, like the kind Marshall Dillon wore (you old guys explain that to the younger guys)identifying your rank. That way it would fit on anything that is worn.

 

 

I realize that uniform is a method of scouting, but I also have learned over the time I have watched this forum that uniforming has got to be the one that is the most abused and least understood method and may be a detriment in recruiting. At some point maybe you adopt a change?

 

Anyway, for the 100th anniversary of BSA, why not a retro uniform, back to the roots in at least one way and the alternative of the pin for outdoor use?

[Newbie Den Leader]

QUOTE: "In most of the world this would be the khaki shirt and dark blue pants as designed by Baden-Powell and worn until the world-wide WOSM program popularizations in the late 1960s."

 

This is the style I like best. These are good looking uniforms. As a Cub Scout den leader, I enjoy wearing my navy blue cotton pants with the khaki scout shirt. I did not realize I was following a Baden-Powell style. I like that!

 

None of the other adult leaders have questioned or criticized my uniform.

 

 

[Region 7 Voyageur]

Newbie Den Leader stated: How the neckerchief is worn is a matter of personal preference or Troop preference.

 

According to the Insignia Guide "the unit has a choice of wearing the neckerchief over the turned under collar or under the open collar. It is not worn over the open collar."

 

This is a unit decision, not an individual decision.

 

[dibbus1987]

Personally, I think we need redesigned pants for boys and adults for field use, made from a fabric that will wick and insulate, plus with zip off legs. As a female Cub Scout leader who wears the yellow/blue combo, I have been searching in earnest for a navy pair of pants that meet these qualifications with no luck at all. Oh, and another suggestion: update your women's sizing! While men can easily go by waist size, women must try to figure out what size to get: as an example, I usually wear a size 6, but for some reason I need a size 14 in BSA clothing! Get a clue, women don't like to wear a size that is 5 sizes bigger than normal, even if it's only a number!!