Troop Uniforms

[Kudu]

No one is required to own one to be a BSA member but if the uniform is worn, there are rules that define the proper way to wear one.

 

Why haven't you mentioned this before, Ed? :-/

 

I'm sure that most readers envision this as a choice between a sharply dressed uniformed unit on the one hand, and Scouts in blue jeans and flannel shirts on the other.

 

If you love the Uniform Method but hate the finger-in-the-eye ugliness of the BSA Uniform, Ed's loophole is big enough to drive a Troop through!

 

As far as I know, there are no BSA rules against rejecting the BSA Uniform and adopting your own Troop Uniform. Dickies and other uniform manufacturers offer tan shirts similar to the BSA shirt (better quality but cheaper), and less expensive (but higher quality) olive-drab BDU cargo pants are consistently available from manufacturers down to about size 6.

 

If you believe that Scout uniforms should be designed to be worn outdoors, you might want to consider olive-drab nylon "zip-off" pants instead, but availability is not as consistent as the BDUs, see:

 

http://www.inquiry.net/uniforms/bdu.htm

 

The whole reason for doing this, of course, would be to make a point about following the rules, so you would have read up on the BSA regulations that govern patches. It has been many years since I read that stuff, but I seem to remember some distinction between official rank and position patches, and other kinds of patches (like Patrol & Council patches, Troop numerals, rank pins, etc.).

 

At any rate, generic Scouting patches can be found at:

 

http://www.inquiry.net/advancement/traditional/generic.htm

 

Kudu

 

 

 

[scoutldr]

I'm not a lawyer...however...

 

certain BSA symbols and logos are registered trademarks and/or copyrighted. I feel certain that you would not be able to use those in making up your own patches.

[FScouter]

Kudu - you are wrong.

 

There is no support at all in any BSA publication for making up your own uniform. Since you don't like the uniform, wear your dickie or whatever. But don't try to tell the rest of us that what you wear or what your personal web site says, has anything at all to do with the Boy Scout uniform!

[Kudu]

scoutldr writes:

 

certain BSA symbols and logos are registered trademarks and/or copyrighted. I feel certain that you would not be able to use those in making up your own patches.

 

The idea is to use already available patches as much as possible. A Troop Uniform would probably have the same status as a patch blanket. My books are packed right now, so someone else will have to look at the rules and report back. For instance, is there a rule that forbids putting BSA rank patches on the back of a Merit Badge sash or a patch blanket? If so, does this rule govern the use of the metal rank pins? If not, the easiest solution might be to use BSA rank pins rather than BSA rank patches.

 

The point is to have fun, follow the rules, and think outside the fundamentalist box.

 

Kudu

 

[Kudu]

FScouter writes:

 

There is no support at all in any BSA publication for making up your own uniform.

 

Well, duh! The whole point is that the BSA never thought of forbidding it!

 

But don't try to tell the rest of us that what you wear or what your personal web site says, has anything at all to do with the Boy Scout uniform!

 

I'm talking about the Uniform Method, not the BSA product. People who see the BSA uniform as a symbol of mean-spirited neo-conservative values usually don't understand the distinction :-/

 

Kudu

[Kahuna]

As far as I can see, there is no prohibition in fact or in logic against making up a troop uniform. I don't know whether BSA ever thought about it or not, but since wearing the uniform is optional you could wear anything you want. However, there are some definite prohibitions against altering BSA insignia. The gist of it is in the uniform guide, but they are legally protected. Just how far that goes is anybody's guess. Sea Scout ships wear all kinds of different uniforms, stemming from the days when it was Sea Exploring and everybody could design their own uniforms and also from the fact we don't have uniforms available from National Supply. Although the national committee has prescribed a uniform that must be worn at national events, so far they haven't done more than encourage units to standardize.

 

There are a bunch of suppliers of things like square knots on white, khaki and blue as well as epaulets that incorporate what is presumably BSA protected insignia. I guess I wouldn't worry about the legal ramifications as much as the other frogs pushing me in the water.

[hops_scout]

If you don't like the uniform adopted by the Boy Scouts of America, then DONT WEAR IT!! But also dont be calling yourselves Boy Scouts and wearing an imitation uniform. I dont care if you wear a uniform at all, but I think you should. Just don't try making your own uniform and call yourself in uniform as a Boy Scout. Join a Venturing Crew for all I care-- there you go you can have your "unit uniform"

 

Leave the uniform as adopted by the Boy Scouts of America alone!!!

[Eamonn]

I think Kudu might be right.

While the Scouts couldn't wear BSA patches on whatever they opted to wear and some of us (Me!!) might not like the idea of it being called a Scout Uniform.

I suppose a Troop could decide that they would all dress in similar way and not be breaking any rules.

I'll have to sleep on it!!

Eamonn.

[Kudu]

Leave the uniform as adopted by the Boy Scouts of America alone!!!

 

Um, that is the whole point, hops_scout, to leave the BSA's dress-designer's uniform completely alone :-/

 

Kudu

[Kudu]

Eamonn, did you find the regulation that specifically prohibits a BSA Scout from wearing BSA patches on whatever he wears? I think there is one, but I skimmed our Troop's 1980s vintage Insignia Guide last night and couldn't find it.

 

(Me!!) might not like the idea of it being called a Scout Uniform

 

The last time I checked, the BSA's technical definition of "Activity Uniform" specified the one they used to sell, so if not "Activity Uniform," then "Troop Uniform" works for me.

 

Of course if the BSA allows official patches to be sewn on patch vests or patch blankets, then we might consider calling it a "patch vest" or "patch blanket" to conform to the rules. I'm flexible.

 

Do you think the BSA would consider renaming their Oscar de la Renta "Official Uniform" the "Hothouse Uniform"? If so, we could call a Troop Uniform the "Outdoor Uniform" :-/

 

Kudu

[hops_scout]

No! Your plan sounds as if you want to pick the uniform apart and only use what you like (ie the patches). If you don't like the uniform, dont wear it; pretty simple, huh?

 

I dont care whether you wear it or not. If you are going to wear it, then wear it right and wear it with pride!! Simple solution to your camping difficulties and wearing the uniform--- on campouts don't wear the uniform! Like it has been stated before, you're not going to find a uniform that works for everyone or that everyone would agree on.

 

I actually like the uniform.

 

Whether I'm wearing Full Uniform or if I'm just wearing a t-shirt, you could almost argue that I'm in uniform at most Boy Scouts events. I wear Full Uniform to troop meetings and wear OD BDU's and a Scout T-shirt on campouts. Yes, I know that the BDU's aren't uniform, but they're a lot closer than your jeans.

[Kudu]

your jeans.

 

My jeans? When my Scouts catch me wearing jeans at the mall, they can't believe their eyes. They point at my jeans and scream "COTTON KILLS!!!! COTTON KILLS!!!!"

 

Your plan sounds as if you want to pick the uniform apart and only use what you like (ie the patches).

 

That about sums it up :-/

 

The idea of a Troop Uniform is to use the Uniform Method, but not the official Uniform. If there is no regulation that specifically prohibits using the BSA patches on unofficial uniforms, then use them! If they are specifically prohibited, then use BSA metal badges, or import the corresponding badges from a free country.

 

If following the rules leads to a Troop Uniform that Scouts want to wear, and at the same time annoys fundamentalists who cite the rules in their efforts to convince Scouters to force their Scouts into ugly uniforms, then so much the better! The best of all possible worlds! Give them a taste of their own medicine!

 

Simple solution to your camping difficulties and wearing the uniform--- on campouts don't wear the uniform!

 

A perfect example of the bankruptcy of the post-Hillcourt hothouse Uniform policies! Scout Uniforms should be designed for the outdoors. They should scream HIGH ADVENTURE and serve as a recruitment tool to attract boys into Scouting, rather than driving them away.

 

if I'm just wearing a t-shirt, you could almost argue that I'm in uniform at most Boy Scouts events

 

The idea of T-shirt "activity uniforms" is more bankruptcy. At the very least, an outdoor Scout Uniform should indicate a Scout's leadership position, rank, council, unit, and Patrol; thereby reinforcing Leadership Development, Advancement, unit cohesiveness, and the Patrol Method. These things take on a special meaning in the great outdoors, where all real Scouting takes place.

 

Like it has been stated before, you're not going to find a uniform that works for everyone

 

The idea that there is no Uniform that will work in all weather conditions is a myth.

 

Nylon zip-off cargo pants can be used in any extreme condition: from windbreakers over snowsuits in the winter, to bathing suits in the summer.

 

Likewise the higher-end breathable nylon hiking shirts (with mesh venting under the armpits and under a flap between the shoulder blades) can be used as a layer in sub-zero weather (which becomes the outer layer in a winter cabin), and as a hiking shirt while backpacking in the summer. They cost about the same as an official Uniform shirt (presumably less if purchased in the millions of units). An example of a breathable nylon Troop shirt can be found at the following URL (but unfortunately is mostly covered with a backpacking vest). see

 

http://www.inquiry.net/images/DSCN0564.jpg

 

or that everyone would agree on.

 

Those who argue against an outdoor uniform lack vision and don't understand William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt's Uniform Method.

 

Kudu

[hops_scout]

So, if you're going to "make your own Troop uniform" when are you also going to write your own handbook? You're already doing away with part of the program, might as well come up with your own.

 

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

 

I wear the uniform of the Boy Scouts of America. I am proud to call myself a member of the Boy Scouts of America and show it proudly when I don the uniform.

While I am a member of Troop XXX, I am also a member of the Boy Scouts of America-- without the Boy Scouts of America, would there be Troop XXX? Join the program, or don't.

[Eamonn]

My copy of the Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America is a couple of years old.

I think if you read :

Article X, Section 4 Insignia,Uniforms And Badges. You will find that there are 12 Clauses.

Clause 9 states that all badges and Insignia shall remain the property of the BSA and clause 12 talks about authorization, saying that the national office shall have the sole right to authorize the use of insignia.

The best thing to do is get a copy of both the Charter and Bylaws of the Boy Scouts of America and a copy of the Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America (57-491 and 57-492) They used to cost $1.50 each and you can order them from the National Office.

While I suppose any group can make up their own "Uniform". From reading the rules and regulations it seems to me (I'm not a lawyer!)That the only Official Uniform is the one you buy from the BSA or from stores that are authorized to sell BSA uniforms and that the BSA owns all the badges and insignia, so as such they can say where they can be worn.

Before everyone jumps all over me !! I'm just saying what is in the book.

I personally am OK with the uniform that we have now. I'm not happy with how expensive it seems to be. However I do have to say that I was very pleased when I sent a pair of shorts along with a pair of socks back to National Supply they replaced them with no hassle.

I don't think that anyone will ever come up with the perfect uniform. What might be fine and dandy in Florida isn't going to be so great in Wyoming.

I remember when the UK uniform went to long pants, I was a young dedicated follower of fashion and wasn't going to be seen dead in what I thought were "Drainpipe Trousers" So I went and had a tailor make me a pair that were flared. Boy did I think that I looked cool.

The other night I visited the home of one of the Sea Scouts,I was putting together our uniform order. I asked the Lad what size pants he took? Like most kids he had no idea. So we asked his Mom. She said that he never wears anything that fits, she asked him to come over to where she was sitting. He was wearing a pair of jeans that didn't look very baggy, but to walk from one end of the room to the other he had to hold up his pants. He stood in front of her and she reached out and with a quick pull his pants were down around his ankles !! Still with all the buttons buttoned. He said that's how he likes to wear his pants. I explained that there would be times when he would need to use both hands to do things and he wasn't going to have a spare hand to hold up his pants. We ordered him a pair of pants that will fit.

I have to smile when I remember how when I was a little Lad our school uniform at grade school was short pants (Yes even in winter) When I was 11 or 12 I wouldn't be seen dead in them old fashioned baggy pants!!

I'm trying to find a place that sells dark blue shorts that are long and have cargo pockets for our Sea Scouts to wear with their working uniforms during the summer. I managed to get them long pants for only $7.50 a pair.

I found chambray shirts for $7.00 each. It really hurt having to pay $3.25 for a Council Patch on a $7.00 shirt.

Eamonn.

[Beavah]

the BSA owns all the badges and insignia, so as such they can say where they can be worn.

 

Nah. Yah got your legalment all befuddled.

 

The BSA owns, as "intellectual property", the symbols on the badges. They can control who manufactures/distributes/sells things with those symbols. To the extent to which they sell something like MB's only through their own shops, they can also control who they are sold to, within limits. But if they're distributing through Dunhams or another sporting goods shop, they can't.

 

Once you purchase a badge, you own the physical badge. You are free to use it on a uniform, trade it, sell it, fold, spindle, mutilate it, sew it on upside down, or burn it as a form of speech. You are not free to represent yourself as speaking for/on behalf of the BSA, nor are you free to use their symbols for personal or corporate gain.

 

So in short, there's nothing wrong with you sewing patches on your jeans. You own the patches. The BSA's recourse is that they can evict you from the organization. But we all know that evicting a troop for sewing patches on a decent-looking troop uniform would be the height of petty and stupid. No SE is going to reduce the reportable number of youth served for something like that.