Scout won't wear uniform-contradicts beliefs

[Kudu]

Certainly, as far as I am concerned you are dead wrong.

 

Obviously Hawaii is the exception that proves the rule :-/

 

Kudu

[FScouter]

Boy Scouts is a uniformed organization. The uniform is not optional. Refusing to wear it, looking for excuses to not wear it, and complaining about it calls into question one's fitness to be a member.

[Kudu]

Case in point :-)

[Hunt]

"Boy Scouts is a uniformed organization. The uniform is not optional. Refusing to wear it, looking for excuses to not wear it, and complaining about it calls into question one's fitness to be a member."

 

But the uniform IS optional. BSA does not require any scout to have a uniform, and uniforming is not even one of the Quality Unit critera. There are some exceptions--such as if you want to go to Jamboree. Since the uniform is optional, if you think it's important what you must do is persuade scouts, other leaders, and parents that wearing the uniform is beneficial. Your ability to achieve that is hampered if the uniform itself is flawed. I would also suggest that replying to complaints about the uniform that the complainers are unfit to be members is not very persuasive, either.

As a parallel, imagine that you are trying to motivate a troop to do more outdoor activities. Are you going to achieve that by telling them that the Outdoor Method is not optional, and that they are unfit to be members if they don't go camping more often? Do you think that will motivate them?

[evmori]

Boy Scouts is a uniformed organization.

I thought Boy Scouts was a youth organization.

 

The uniform is not optional.

Ahh! But to be a member of the BSA one is not required to own a uniform. That makes it optional!

 

Refusing to wear it, looking for excuses to not wear it, and complaining about it calls into question one's fitness to be a member.

I've seen many a Scouter in uniform & question their fitness!

 

You can't force anyone to wear the uniform. And by not holding BOR's or MB sessions because the Scout isn't in uniform is adding to the requirements. And that isn't allowed. Remember, the uniform is a method not a requirement.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[SemperParatus]

Four frogs sat upon a log that lay floating on the edge of a river. Suddenly the log was caught by the current and swept slowly down the stream. The frogs were delighted and absorbed, for never before had they sailed.

 

At length the first frog spoke, and said, "This is indeed a most marvellous log. It moves as if alive. No such log was ever known before."

 

Then the second frog spoke, and said, "Nay, my friend, the log is like other logs, and does not move. It is the river that is walking to the sea, and carries us and the log with it."

 

And the third frog spoke, and said, "It is neither the log nor the river that moves. The moving is in our thinking. For without thought nothing moves."

 

And the three frogs began to wrangle about what was really moving. The quarrel grew hotter and louder, but they could not agree.

 

Then they turned to the fourth frog, who up to this time had been listening attentively but holding his peace, and they asked his opinion.

And the fourth frog said, "Each of you is right, and none of you is wrong. The moving is in the log and the water and our thinking also."

 

And the three frogs became very angry, for none of them was willing to admit that his was not the whole truth, and that the other two were not wholly wrong.

 

Then a strange thing happened. The three frogs got together and pushed the fourth frog off the log into the river.

 

~ Kahlil Gibran, The Forerunner

 

 

[CA_Scouter]

I'm guessing that fourth frog wasn't in full uniform.

:-)

 

[evmori]

I'd bet frog #4 didn't have his official BSA socks on so the other 3 considered him unfit to be on the log!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Kahuna]

Kudu writes: Obviously Hawaii is the exception that proves the rule :-/

 

Well, Hawai'i definitely is the exception to most things when it comes to rules, whether having too many or too few or something else. I'm not sure that has anything to do with my being an exception to most rules.

 

SemperParatus: Excellent point. However, the others missed the obvious: Those frogs were Sea Scouts and nobody has more uniform disputes than Sea Scouts. The fourth frog was wearing too many square knots on his uniform.

[FScouter]

Well, I wouldnt want to be accused of being one of those 3 frogs. So Ill back off (a very tiny bit) and agree that a boy is not required to have a uniform in order to be a Boy Scout. I do not equate that to the contention that the uniform is optional.

 

Why do you suppose BSA wrote that ONE sentence into the literature? Was it intended to give units the option to dismiss the uniform method? Not likely. Rather, it gives a boy a way to be a Scout even if he does not have a uniform. It lets us bring boys into the troop without restricting membership only to those that own a uniform. Yes son, you may join the troop even if you dont have a uniform. We WANT you to be a member!

 

My dad was a Boy Scout during the 30s depression. His father was the minister of the church in a poor community. He supported his family on a salary of $5 a week. My dad did not have a uniform. No one had a uniform. Still, he was proud to be a Boy Scout. If a uniform was REQUIRED, he could not have been a Scout.

 

There are dozens of reasons to wear the uniform and promote the uniform method. The Scout Handbook discusses the uniform and never says optional. The Scoutmaster Handbook has an entire chapter devoted to the uniform, and only one sentence saying we cannot REQUIRE one to be a member. The uniform and the uniform method is discussed over and over throughout the BSA publications.

 

The uniform represents a democratic idea of equality; bringing people of different economic, religious, and ethnic backgrounds together. It identifies us as members of a national organization, sharing common ideals. It shows our activity, responsibility, and achievement. It is a reminder to all of us of our commitment to the ideals and purpose of the Boy Scouts of America. It makes our commitment visible to the community.

 

What in Heavens name are people thinking about when they argue AGAINST the uniform !?

[Beavah]

What in Heavens name are people thinking about when they argue AGAINST the uniform !?

 

Dat's Easy. The uniform loses us good kids who would otherwise join scouting.

 

There are dozens of reasons to wear the uniform and promote the uniform method.

 

Right answer to da wrong question. We should na' be caring about promoting the uniform method. We should be caring about whether the uniform method as enacted is promoting our Aims... with the kids. It doesn't matter whether we adults think the uniform represents Truth, Justice, and the American Way. What matters is what the kids think it represents.

 

 

 

[Eamonn]

Going back to the Frogs.

Number one Frog seen a great looking Toad. He said to the other Frogs "Man that Toad with all them warts looks really cool. I want to look like him."

Number two Frog said " I like the look of that Duck, I want to get some feathers and look just like him."

Number three Frog said " It really doesn't matter if you dress up like a Duck or a Toad, you'll still both be Frogs"

Number four Frog said "The only problem is going to be if you only get half the warts or half the feathers, while Ducks and Toads can attend the Frog ball, those who are only dressed in half Frog attire are not allowed in."

Number one Frog became a Toad, he never dressed like a Frog again, but attended the Frog Ball every year.

Number two Frog only got Duck Feathers from the waist down, keeping his Frog like appearance from the waist up. He was never allowed to attend the Frog ball.

Number three Frog joined the Sea Frogs and moved to Hawaii.

And number four Frog was singing at the Frog Ball when he was discovered and he went on to join the Muppets.

Eamonn

[evmori]

If the uniform isn't required then how can it be anything other than optional? If you do wear it, there are rules for wearing it. But no one who is a BSA member is required to wear the uniform therefore making it optional.

 

In my Troop, we encourage complete uniforming. I always wear mine to Troop meetings & outings. I love the uniform. But we in no way require each & every Scout & Scouter in our Troop to own one. That would be adding to the requirements & that isn't allowed.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Hunt]

Fscouter, I liked your last post. You gave chapter and verse on why BSA thinks the uniform method is important, and you gave some good arguments on the benefit of having uniforms. But then you say:

"What in Heavens name are people thinking about when they argue AGAINST the uniform !?"

 

Here's where I think you're really arguing against a straw man, because there really isn't anybody arguing against the idea of BSA as a uniformed organization. As I see it, there are two general arguments that have been advanced: (1) that complete uniforming is not imporant, and that it's no big deal if (for example) a unit decides to only wear the uniform shirt; and (2) that there are problems with the current uniform. I think your counterargument really goes only to the first of these. The second one is really quite different, and shouldn't be the cause of so much emotional debate.

[Prairie_Scouter]

I think it's a mistake to get so caught up in the uniform that you lose sight of what we're trying to accomplish. What good have we done a boy if we push him away because he's not wearing some special pair of socks?

 

Personally I think that the spirit of the uniform is all embodied in the shirt and insignia, etc., on it There's nothing special about the rest of it; others may disagree. Nonetheless, I do wear the full uniform, and encourage our Scouts to do so as well.