Scout won't wear uniform-contradicts beliefs

[Lynda J]

If the committee requires a scout to wear a uniform for SMC and BOR. They have in fact added a requirement to advancement.

I wear my uniform to any scouting activity and so do my boys, which in most cases they do.

BSA does not require a boy to own a uniform in order to be a scout. I personally like the uniform, except for the pants with pockets you can't put anything in, I am proud to wear it.

[AvidSM]

Ashamed to be a scout? The're ashamed to wear something 25 years out of date! Apart from the change in the shorts, the uniform hasn't changed since Oscar de la Renta redesigned it in 1981. Would you wear a business suit to an important meeting that you bought in 1981?

 

The boys hate the thing. Anyone caught wearing shorts hemmed above the knee is considered gay according to them. They only wear it because we insist. If they only bothered to read the Scoutmaster's Handbook, they would find the page that says it's not needed to be a scout. And, if push came to shove, there is no troop committee, uniformed leader or chartering organization that could deny him membership or advancement due to the lack of it. Show me OFFICIAL BSA POLICY that says otherwise.

 

And, you can't use Scout Spirit to keep him back (the most abused and misquoted requirement I know). It's "living the scout oath and scout law IN YOUR EVERYDAY LIFE" - OUTSIDE of troop activities - so, the uniform can't be an issue.

 

It's time that the BSA redesign the uniform to more modern aesthetics - and not accept any free offers.

[SeattlePioneer]

This has proved to be an interesting thread.

 

While some writers have been critical of the Scout for lying about his motivation for not wanting to wear the uniform, I'm inclined to wonder why he felt he couldn't raise the issue honestly and get a fair hearing.

 

Perhaps it would be appropriate for a chartered organization to require uniforming if they really felt strongly about it, that would be rare I would suppose.

 

I don't think it's appropriate for the adults or the Troop Committee to impose a uniforming rule on the Scouts. I suggest that's something the Scouts should decide through their PLC.

 

Give this Scout an opportunity for a hearing before the PLC to make his case. Perhaps some acceptable compromise can be found.

 

 

 

Seattle Pioneer

[CA_Scouter]

SeattlePioneer makes some interesting observations.

 

"While some writers have been critical of the Scout for lying about his motivation for not wanting to wear the uniform, I'm inclined to wonder why he felt he couldn't raise the issue honestly and get a fair hearing. "

 

Could it be because the adults are 'uniform police' types? Kid probably knew he would get a lot of flak from the adults.

 

"I don't think it's appropriate for the adults or the Troop Committee to impose a uniforming rule on the Scouts. I suggest that's something the Scouts should decide through their PLC. "

 

BINGO! You've got to give the PLC some lattitude and let them make some decisions. Many years ago, our PLC decided that the troop rule was 'uniform from the waist up'. This seems to work well for us and nobody complains all that much.

 

 

Let's face facts here folks, though I love my uniform and proudly wear it, most teenage boys think its dorky and not 'cool'. And you know that should a Scout be 'found out' at school, that you'll have every idiotkid poking fun or making derogatory comments. Don't argue with me on this point, I LIVED it when I was a Scout in the early 70's. (oops, dated myself again)

 

If we give the scouts some flexibility with the uniform, especially coming from the PLC, it empowers them and gives them some satisfaction in that they feel they have a say in troop policy.

 

IMHO, the Uniform Method is the least important of the methods and the one that generates the most debate. I am much more inclined to work on leadership and character than I am on making them look good.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[FScouter]

Often it is suggested that units write up some kind of uniform rule that involves removing uniform parts. "Waist up" seems to be a common idea. If wearing the uniform is a problem, why not simply stop wearing it? No rule is needed. What is the purpose in writing up a "rule" that says the unit uniform is less than a uniform?

 

There are a million+1 things a PLC can make decisions on. Changing the uniform is not one of them. The uniform and uniform options are defined by our national organization, not by individual units. It is wrong to empower the PLC to alter something they are not allowed to alter, particularly because they, or the adult leaders dont like it.

 

Doing so anyway is contradictory to building character.

[CA_Scouter]

FScouter, I respectfully disagree. I'll 'Ed' you on this one: As has been stated many times in these forums, the uniform is not required. A uniform doesn't build character either, I've seen scouts in uniform that are significantly lacking in that area.

 

I'm afraid that you might think I don't support wearing of the uniform. I do, I just don't consider it as important as the other methods.

 

And that's my opinion.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Venividi]

> And, you can't use Scout Spirit to keep him back (the most

> abused and misquoted requirement I know). It's "living the scout > oath and scout law IN YOUR EVERYDAY LIFE" - OUTSIDE of troop

> activities - so, the uniform can't be an issue.

 

We may be looking at different parts of the same elephant and drawing different conclusions here, but try as hard as I can, I cannot read into "IN YOUR EVERYDAY LIFE" that this means excluding troop activities. I once had a scouts Mom use that argument to try and make a case that her son should be advanced to Life - his behavior was awful at troop meetings, but, according to his Mom, he was very helpful in the theater group that he was part of, so his bad behaviour at troop meetings shouldn't be something that needed modification in order to be a Life scout.

 

So sorry, but I cannot buy your argument as stated.

 

Venividi

 

[Venividi]

 

> A uniform doesn't build character either, I've seen scouts in

> uniform that are significantly lacking in that area.

 

I have to disagree with this statement. The BSA position is that all 8 methods (including uniform) are there to help achieve the aims. I think it unlikely that they specified a method that has no bearing on the aims. I have no doubt that you have seen uniformed scouts behaving badly, but that does not mean that wearing the uniform doesn't help build character. An analogy - I am aware of church youth group members having shoplifted. That doesn't imply that church membership isn't valuable in developing character.

 

If you don't want to use the uniform method in your program, I have no beef with that. Similarly, I hope you don't have a problem with units that do choose to use the uniforming method and have found it to be an effective part of their overall program. Scouting is a big tent - lets count on each other to do the best to help develop character, citizenship, and fitness in our charges, even if each of us does so with differing points of emphasis.

 

Venividi

[rhino]

Oddly, I was just reading my scoutmasters handbook which explicitly states that no boy is required to own a uniform and that the uniform is not a requirement to participate in scout activities. That seems pretty straight forward right out of a BSA publication.

[Kahuna]

Welcome to the forum, Rhino. The BSA pubs may say that the uniform is not required to participate in activities, but in practice it's not quite the way it works. If you want to go to a jamboree, you gotta have a series of uniform items. If your Sea Scout unit wants to participate in any national activity, you must have the proper uniforms.

 

The remainder of my rant is in response to the previous posts in the thread.

 

I've said before in this thread that any unit I have anything to do with would be a 100% uniformed unit. I won't compromise on the whole thing, either. No "waist up" stuff for me. I don't presume to tell other units what they need to do, but I would suggest that how you appear to the public reflects on the program as a whole. On another thread I related my experience at a flag presentation ceremony aboard the USS Missouri. The troop that was involved looked so sloppy that I sort of slunk out without introducing myself or talking with any of them. They were partly in and partly out of uniform, some long pants, some shorts, some civillian pants. Made a terrible impression on the public, especially in a setting where, even as a volunteer, I must be in correct staff uniform or they won't let me aboard.

 

I was a Boy Scout 40 years ago. The uniform of that era had not changed in 25 years and the changes made were not very radical from the 1930's to 1980. Boy Scout uniforms were considered dorky and you could get harrassed for wearing one if you were older than about 12. So, in short, I don't buy this argument that if the uniform were different, boys would wear it more willingly. To me, it's as much a part of the program as the patrol method. You can disregard the patrol method if you want, but what you have is not a Boy Scout troop.

[Eamonn]

Passing the Uniform Buck on to the PLC or the Committee is a nice try!!

While the Rules and Regulations of the BSA clearly state that owning and wearing a BSA uniform is not a condition of membership. It all so states that only the National Committee can change the uniform.

Saying that our unit only wears from the waist up is about as silly as saying we only require Scouts to wear Scout socks!!

Waist up or waist down - Is still not the uniform.

The SE, the council Executive Board, the Committee, the PLC, The SM and a little Lads Mom do not have the authority to change the uniform.

You might love it or hate it, but as of right now it is the uniform. It might well be out of date, but it is still the uniform.

If you dislike it that much just don't wear it. Not wearing it is OK. Making changes to it is not OK and yes that means only wearing parts of it.

I personally don't have a beef with the uniform. But if it were to be changed, I'm almost certain that not everyone would be happy.

It can be said that the consequences for abusing the uniform are non-existent? But I really don't know how a leader worth his salt, who is charged with helping make young people make ethical decisions can stand up in front of a group of young people and tell them that he knows what the uniform policy of the BSA is and he understands it, but has chosen to ignore it and that's OK.

I'm sorry I don't see it as being any more OK than telling an 18 year old that it's just a beer or smoking marijuana is OK because it's less harmful than tobacco or downloading music illegally is OK.

The example we the adults set isn't just the fact that we wear the uniform, the example goes further than that.

Eamonn.

[Beavah]

I really don't know how a leader worth his salt, who is charged with helping make young people make ethical decisions can stand up in front of a group of young people and tell them that he knows what the uniform policy of the BSA is and he understands it, but has chosen to ignore it and that's OK.

 

Dat's Easy.

 

The leader is being Mentally Awake, and encouraging his scouts to follow their Oath and be the same.

 

He or she recognizes that for the boys in the troop in their area, the BSA uniform guidelines (not policy, BTW) are not achieving the aims and purpose for which they were intended. So the SM uses Patrol Method and Youth Leadership Development and Outdoor Program and all those other methods to come up with some uniform guidelines that work.

 

Just like the many workers and volunteers down in New Orleans who ignored the inane FEMA paperwork guidelines and figured out what really worked to provide assistance, it demonstrates good character and citizenship to roll up your sleeves, listen to others, and make something work for your kids. "I was just following the rules" is always a poor excuse.

 

I'll leave it as an exercise whether comparing wearing a complete dress-designer outfit to youth drug use is in keeping with the "mentally awake" part of the oath. We all got a good chuckle out of it here, tho!

 

 

 

[Eamonn]

He or she recognizes that for the boys in the troop in their area, the BSA uniform guidelines (not policy, BTW)

I don't know where you get that they are not policy?

I would direct you to Rules and Regulations, Article 4, section 4, clause 4

Try and dress it up any way you like you just do not have the right to go changing the uniform.

Back home in London the speed limit in town is 30 MPH, it seems to work fine. Here in my tiny little hamlet it is 25 MPH. Do I have the right to ignore it -Of course I don't.

However it seems the example you are setting is telling the Scouts is if you think it's wrong ; Just do what you like.

Eamonn.

[Kudu]

I think the thread is well named. I suspect that there is a high correlation between people's opinions about the Official BSA Uniform (such as it is) and their religious beliefs. This explains why it is always such a perennial and hotly debated topic in this and other Scouting forums.

 

I bet that if you tracked what people post about the Uniform and what the same people post on topics like "Duty to God" and other "3-G" issues, you would find that that those who support a zero-tolerance BSA Scout Pants policy also support BSA policies which are based on fundamentalist interpretations of the Bible.

 

Such people tend to think of the Uniform as primarily reflecting a Scout's "values." They value obedience, and if the Uniform is so poorly designed that Scouts hate to wear it, then so much the better :-/

 

My guess is that those who think of the ideal Uniform as practical outdoors clothing that reinforces the other Methods of Scouting (Patrol Patch, Advancement Badge, Leadership Position Patch, etc), tend to think of values as cultural, rather than absolute. Rather than "A Scout is obedient," their favorite Scout Law would be Baden-Powell's "unwritten 11th law:" A Scout is not a fool!

 

Conservatives see the Uniform as reflecting neo-conservative values, pragmatists see the ideal Uniform as reflecting Scouting's promise of outdoor adventure.

 

Just a guess.

 

Kudu

 

 

[Kahuna]

With all respect, Kudu, I think your guess is wildly off on this one. I think there is a high correlation between people who post about uniforms and people who are interested in uniforming as part of the scouting methods.

 

Certainly, as far as I am concerned you are dead wrong. I am neither a believer in the Bible, nor a strict "obedience" leader.

 

I don't think the uniform is good camping wear and don't think many troops require kids wear it while camping. It would be hard to design an all-purpose uniform in todays world of camping gear, but I guess it would look like the military battle dress uniform of today. You will note the military has four basic uniforms that everybody wears at one time or another: battle dress, or fatigue uniform for grubby work; semi-formal dress for the office environment; dress uniforms for parades and mess dress uniform for evening formal events. I don't think Boy Scouts could afford that many uniforms, do you?

 

In Baden-Powells day, the military wore the same uniform in parades and in combat. The scout uniform of his day was based on that design and worked pretty well. Today, I don't think there is any uniform that works well in both environments and I don't think that any uniform designer could come up with a uniform that would make everybody happy. It would take a surfer uniform, a skater uniform, preppy uniform and geek uniform to make the kids happy.

 

My advice is either wear the uniform as it is and require your kids to wear it, or forget the whole thing and wear camouflage. But what you have won't be a Boy Scout troop.

 

(Jeez, I feel like I'm channeling Bob White here. )