Class A uniform vs Class B uniform

[Bob White]

Nor is it available through National or council scout shops or from scoutstuff.org. It is only available through philmont Tooth of Time Traders trading post. It is not shown in any materials on the Official uniform or Activity uniform for any program.

 

It is apparel made and licensed to the BSA. But at theis time it is only used as a staff uniform by the Philmont staff and is not for wear with the official uniform, although any member of the BSA can buy it through Tooth of Time Traders.

 

I can see how the take could be confusing.

[evmori]

Glad we cleared that up!

[SemperParatus]

I really miss that sanforizing stuff.

[John-in-KC]

Now I get the point: Those who become card carrying members of the Uniform Police have subsituted "pedanticim for its own sake" for B-P's "the game with a purpose." They have opted to emphasize the Uniform method of Scouting over the other seven methods of this part of the BSA program packages.

 

By the collective standards of this thread (see the NINTH message in this thread), the T-shirt designed by my WB course leaders as our activity shirt takes us out of BSA uniform, despite the students and faculty wearing BSA shorts, belts, and socks. The T-shirts worn by my Councils scout camps staffs take each and every member out of uniform, despite the staff (paid and commissioner alike) wearing BSA shorts, belts, and socks. Wearing BSA tagged official uniform shorts whose construction, fit and finish are designed for the rugged outdoors, takes a Scout or Scouter out of BSA uniform.

 

I pity the paying guests (Scouts and Scouters) in your Council boy/cub scout resident and day camps if you are on staff there and enforcing policy the way you write of it here.

 

Yes, uniforming is a method of the Boy Scouting program. It should properly receive no more and no less emphasis than any of the other seven methods.

[Bob White]

Now John, no one said anything of the kind and you know it. Deeeeep breath time John.

 

rReality check. There are no uniform police, there never were. There are uniform controls establish by the BSA to create a 'UNIFORM' consistant, controlled, predetermined clothing and accessories that represents the program as a whole and subgroups.

 

Now John, A question was asked of what is the RULE, so we went to the rule book and replied "the rule book says this".

 

Now how is that the uniform police? Had you been one of the people to look in the book would you suddenly and automatically join the fictional uniform police force? Of course not John, its just a book of answers.

 

Now according to the rules, and as scouters it is unscoutlike to be disobedient, accessories such as hats, shirts, and neckerchiefs, and activity patches, must have one of three elements; the intials BSA, the words 'Boy Scouts of America", or the Fleur d'lis symbol.

 

It also is to be approved by the SE since it incorporates trademarked words and emplems.

 

I have five shirts from differnt WB courses and about 15 at the moment from fifferent summer camps and day camps and every one of them has one or more of those three elements in their design, and I would bet that yours probably do to.

 

If not, then yes, the shirts are not technically approved for 'Uniform' wear. Now that doesn't mean they can't be worn. It means that when you wear them you are not 'in uniform' assording to the uniform rules of the BSA.

 

I hope this helps you to understand the situation more clearly and shows that there is nothing here to be upset about.

 

BW

[madkins007]

John in KC-

 

In real life, I have only been a uniform cop twice- despite having been a CM, SM, training chair, roundtable staff, and Scout store employee.

 

In one instance, at a leader's flag ceremony, I asked the assembly to remove non-uniform headgear, and waited a heartbeat. one guy did not remove his fedora-like hat and I caught his eye and nodded at his hat. He reluctantly removed it- and many other people saw what happened. Afterwards, he sought me out and insisted the hat was unifrom wear. It was the expedition hat, and I suggested to him that it indeed was not.

 

He said he had just bought it a couple days ago on the advice of a guy at the Scout shop, that he was looking for a good-looking hat for all actvitities and had been assured that this fit the bill.

 

I almost laughed out loud. I asked if he himself picked it up or not, and he told me his wife had. I could not stifle my laugh when i told him I was the guy who sold it to his wife, and was the guy who he worked with on the phone. I reminded him that I had told him it was an approved 'activity' hat, but nothing about it being an approved uniform hat. We did not sell a lot of these hats, but we sure as heck knew they were not in the Insignia Guide or any of our update memos about being uniform wear.

 

What we had was a simple miscommunication. I assured him if he wished I would return the hat for him and send him the refund but he was otherwise happy with it so we parted ways with no hard feelings.

 

The other time was during a segment on uniforming in Cub Leader traiing in which my uniforming segment trainer was discussing that proper uniforming was both a little tough to achieve, but also easy with a little help (Insignia Guide and inspection sheets). This particular trainer IS a uniform cop- even a bit of a uniform nazi. In past sessions (before I was chair) this person would nearly ridicule people in less than perfect uniform- even calling them up to point out errors.

 

During this session the trainer was using my uniform to demonstrate placement [FYI- my uniform was spot-on perfect. I may not like the thing in some ways, but everything is exactly where it should be. The ONLY 'off' bit was my belt- the BSA web belt is a bit skimpy for me, so I used Big and Tall men's work belt with a BSA buckle- the trainer could not tell.]

 

The trainer repeated the bit about proper uniforming not being difficult and I stepped in. I mentioned that our trainer had a flaw in their uniform to test everyone- did anyone catch it? They did not, so I turned the trainer around and showed that the neckerchief had pulled up and was only about 3" long. I helped pull it back down and the program went on.

 

In our units, we always did a pre-inpsection the week before an official inspection. The pre's were harsh, and specific details were written down for the Scout and their parents to work on- but the reults were not recorded anywhere. For our 'real' inspections- we were lambs! Crooked insignia? If it was close, it was good! Neckerchiefs? Never measured'em, just a brief eye-balling. We looked for overall neatness and a good effort. But you know what? Most of our Scouts were in great uniforms! We also did quick inspections on each other before every training session and roundtable.

 

Show'em, teach'em, help'em, answer their questions... but I never, ever go up to Scouts or Scouters and point out things wrong with their uniform. I may ASK about something unusual that catches my eye- like the guy who comes to RT in an authentic 1950's era leaders uniform (same guy has worn a Air Explorers uniform to meetings before!} or the guy who tricked his uniform out with dress snaps (the tiny ones) and liked to switch things when people were not looking ("didn't that used to be a retro OA lodge flap? And weren't you a SM a minute ago??")

 

This is a slightly different venue though. We may offer strong opinions, but we have no way of enforcing them, and most of us don't loose any sleep over it one way or another.

 

You can safely wear your Philmont shorts to any of my programs or meetings and I shan't say boo about it. If you met me later and asked me what I thought, I'd probably say they looked spiffy and I wish the BSA would make them uniform options for us.

 

If that is being a uniform cop in real life, so be it.

[Bob White]

I don't think it was being a unirofm police, I do however think it was a little heavy handed for a ceremony. If you were teaching flag ettiquette I think its fine to explain what is correct or incorrect, but in a ceremony or really anywhere outside of the instructors role you simply say, "hand salute" and you rely on yhe knowledge and character of the individual to do the right thing.

 

That is the same way the BSA approaches uniforming, They give you ample resources and information to know the rules or where to find them. Then it is up the the character of the individual to do the right thing.

 

 

[madkins007]

Yeah, I've always felt a little bad about the flag bit. I did not mean to single anyone out and only commented about the hats since there were about a dozen guys wearing hunting caps, etc. on a brisk day and I just figured that detail slipped their minds. Had the other guy not removed his hat I had no intention of saying a word about it or waiting- I just nodded to him then started the calls.

 

 

[evmori]

madkins,

I don't think you were out of line. You made the statement & there were those who didn't comply.

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10 (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

[Hunt]

Bob, can you point me to the rule that says a troop-designed activity uniform T-shirt must say "BSA" or have the BSA logo on it? I've seen many troop shirts that don't meet this requirement, although they are clearly scouting shirts. Is this down in black and white somewhere?

[Greying Beaver]

Re: the "expedition hat" - It is in the uniform catalogue and is listed as a "activity" uniform item, not Class A. Phooey on 'em. And the expedition hat is not supposed to have any hat pins on it either. That hat is the best idea in uniforming that BSA Supply has come up with in a long, long time. And yes, it does have the fleur-de-lis i the inside of the crown. It is an adult-only uniform item. That's too bad. It would look great on all scouts and scouters. Used to be that scouts wore their rank pins on the front of their campaign hats back through the 1440's when the "overseas" cap was introduced. that was the last vestage of the BSA uniform copying the U.S.Army uniform. BTY, does anybody know when the neckerchief came into being a part of the uniform? I have my dad's scout handbook (c. late 1920's) with drawings of scouts in complete (of course!) uniform. No neckerchiefs.

[NIscouter]

If the troop votes to make the expedition hat part of the troop uniform, is it then considered a part of the "approved" uniform for that troop? We have done this in our troop, and I have been told it is OK to keep it on during Flag Ceremonies as I am in uniform. What say yea, oh wise ones in the ways of the uniform :>

[Bob White]

Hunt, it is from a combination of several sources, the insignia guide, the sea scout and Venturing manuals, council uniforming information, years of experience making patches and t-shirts for various councils.

 

To be a "uniform" piece the item must carry one or more trademark insignias of the BSA. The best evidence of this I can offer is the BSA catalog or on line scout shop. You will note that every uniform shirt, t-shirt and polo shirt along with every hat or neckerchief carries one or more of the three elements I mentioned.

 

Since only the BSA or it's local representative agency the Council, can approve the use of the emblems the designs are supposed to be aproved by either the national or council office. When a council places an order this is not a problem the approval is understood. But when a unit places an order using a BSA trademark reputable companies ask for written council approval to reproduce the trademarks just as with any other trademarked item.

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[stlscouter]

I have had the opportunity to design several (many) troop, district, Woodbadge and Jambo t-shirts for "class B" uniforms and my understanding from Co is that the logos, the fleur de lis and or BSA were non copyrighted and should be used thereby making it "offical".

 

That aside-what about folks who take their tan shirts to the cleaners and have them starched and pressed (and what about the "military creases"). Personally, I like the starch because the shirts don't stain nearly as badly and you can ALMOST wear them a week at summer camp without being to smelly.

[Hunt]

Well, I'm still confused about the shirts. Bob, you seem to be saying that for a troop to make T-shirts that qualify for the activity uniform, they must include copyrighted words or logos that have to be approved by Council. Are you saying that activity shirt designs must all be approved by Council? Does the insignia guide say this? I was thinking about designing some T-shirts and printing them on T-shirt transfers with an inkjet printer--I've never heard that you were supposed to get this approved by anyone.