What if we DID drop uniforms?

[NIscouter]

SR540Beaver - The response your son gave was one I saw, said, and experienced as a scout... in the early 1970s!! I think kids are always looking for a reason to single out somebody as being "different" and make fun of, and scouts in uniforms give them an easy target. I think, Trev, that your son really did mean "a" scout uniform, one that is identified with BSA. I still am a bit uncomfortable at times being seen in the uniform due to my experiences with it as a scout. But I have a thicker skin now and have pretty well overcome it, unlike most our boys who appear to live and die by the opinion of thier peers.

[evmori]

Position Of Responsibility.

 

Like SPL, ASPL,PL, TG, etc.

[madkins007]

Personally, my own favorite solution would indeed be for the current shirt and neckerchief, then a dress code for pants (solid olive/dark khaki/dark green color, no pleats or hems).

 

UNTIL we came up with a better overall design THAT INVOLVED YOUTH INPUT.

 

 

[Bob White]

Madkins,

Why do you assume that there was no youth over 25 years ago when the current uniform was developed?

 

I find it funny to think that anyone believes you can stop kids from teasing kids for being in Scouting by changing the clothes they wear.

 

They are not teased for their clothing, they are teased for the traditional values that Scouting represents.

 

When a young man who follows the rules and makes mature decisions even adults ask 'what are you some kinda Boy Scout" as if that was a bad thing.

 

So What? Why do scouters want minimal uniforms to try and hide we are scouts. If you are ashamed to be recognized then you should do yourself a favor and spend your time doing something you are proud of being. No one should be doing anything they are ashamed of.

 

In the same vein let's not be teaching our scouts to be ashamed of you they are. No mateer what you make the uniform, even if wear just a wristwatch, as soon as someone recognized it as a scout watch he is gonna get teased. Rather than look for a way to hide why aren't you teaching him about the strength that comes with the values of scouting.

 

Stop worrying about dressing as an outdoorsman and start teaching character. If you have faith in your beliefs you do not have to apologize for who you are or what you stand for.

 

No amout of uniform changes will replace having confidence in who you are.

 

You should see my son's Sea Scout Ship. These guys look for opportunities to wear their dress whites. My son's scout troop has 5 guys going to Jamboree and two going to NYLD and these are all guys who regularly wear a complete uniform. These guys wear their scout t-shirts to high school.

 

Do you think they get teased? Sure they do, but they're good kids and they would probably get teased sometimes anyway. The thing is they don't care. That's just human nature for kids.

 

 

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Trevorum]

This thread and Bob's post reminds me of a SM minute about the uniform I shared with Scouts-L a while back. I've posted it here under the SM Minutes forum if anyone is interested. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

[GopherJudy]

Ed,

 

Thanks! I could not figure that one out, must be the heat & humidity!

 

Judy

[evmori]

The uniform is a method of Scouting. We are Scouts 24/7 but we don't wear our uniform 24/7. I don't have mine on now but I am still a Scout.

 

Scouting is more about who we are than what we wear. Sure it's nice to "dress the part" but it isn't a necessity. There are more important elements of Scouting than the clothes we wear.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[dkurtenbach]

It's pretty simple, really. Most youth of middle school age are very attuned to the ever-shifting social "norms" of their age group: what's cool, what's not, who's cool, who's not. Most are highly aware of those distinctions. Most boys of that age -- Boy Scout age -- have not yet developed an independent identity for themselves strong enough to ignore or defy those "norms" without social penalty(that comes later, around age 16 or 17). So for most boys, it really doesn't matter if they like Scouts or like the uniform; they will act in accordance with their social norms. Those norms generally provide that most sports are cool. Therefore, it is perfectly natural for boys to associate themselves with something cool, and wearing sports uniforms almost anywhere is cool. Those norms also generally provide that Scouting is geeky. Therefore, it is perfectly natural for boys to avoid associating themselves with something geeky. For boys who are Scouts, that means they dislike wearing the uniform in public, and may be quick to drop out of Scouting. For non-Scouts, it means they are a very tough sell on joining Scouting. It has nothing to do with personal courage on the part of the boy, or with the appearance or usefulness of the uniform itself. It has everything to do with the "reputation" of Scouting in 11- to 15-year-old society. Until Scouting is cool, we will have issues with boys not wanting to wear the uniform. The uniform, as the outward symbol of Scouting, represents Scouting's geekiness. When boys say they wouldn't join Scouting because of the uniform, they are simply saying that they wouldn't join Scouting because they don't want to be associated with a geeky organization. The uniform itself is not the real obstacle, and therefore dropping the uniform is not the real remedy.

 

Dan Kurtenbach

Fairfax, VA

 

 

[Centreville Scout]

Everyone has a point, but the problem isn't here. Most Scouts I know don't wear class A's to school. Changing the uniform isn't going to change that. No one likes to stand out. Many kids arn't afraid of the uniform that no one would wear to school in a million years, but it IS pear pressure. They're afraid of it leaking some other way. They know that they don't have to wear class A's everywhere, they just don't want other kids making fun of them.

 

It's not the uniforms, it's the Scouting ideals. You can't make the uniform obsure, because even a scout wristwatch wouldn't be worn to school because of the risks.

 

Make school accept Scouts

 

OR

 

Adjust Scouting

 

No one wants to adjust Scouting, so adjust the schools.

 

CS

[GopherJudy]

Dan Kurtenbach said it perfect, nothing to do with the uniform at all, just the way a teenager thinks, if that's possible! I'm trying to remember if I thought as a teenager but that's too long ago! LOL!

 

I keep telling Mark that if he wasn't in scouts he wouldn't be doing the things that he's doing (camping, hiking, cooking, going to different places, etc) & learning what he's learning if he wasn't in scouts.

 

My head hurts too much so I can't think any more!

 

Judy

[Student]

If you will forgive an edited reposting of a comment previously made in a different thread...

 

Have you ever noticed that when an adult begins an exercise program, he or she starts wearing athletic apparel--a sweatshirt, perhaps, or a sweatsuit, along with fancy shoes? Sometimes it's just for that brisk walk around the neighborhood and sometimes it's for hours around the house before and after. It's part of the perceived process of becoming a fit person. By putting on that athletic uniform, the individual is "becoming" what he or she has selected as their goal.

 

This has been known for years by marketers of consumer products, who sell to who people want to be, rather than to who they are now.

 

We (the unit leadership) need to position the uniform as a sign of an exclusive fraternity of young men. It isn't available to everybody. The people that wear it climb mountains, save lives, travel effortlessly through trackless wilderness, help their neighbors, rescue children. It is only worn by those who have taken on substantial responsibilities having significant outcomes.

 

Student

[johndaigler]

Student, two points (I don't know if I'm quibbling semantics or keeping you from lazy thinking) ?

 

First, we generally aren't wearing our uniforms when we do those things.

 

Second, we aren't as selective as you think:

The people that wear it climb mountains, save lives, travel effortlessly through trackless wilderness, help their neighbors, rescue children. It is only worn by those who have taken on substantial responsibilities having significant outcomes.

 

A better description might be that those of us who wear the uniform are learning to become the person you describe above. IMHO, Scouting is thought of as nerdy, because "nerdy" people can succeed here. You don't have to be the local high school QB to be a great Scout. We accept almost everyone and celebrate who they are and what they are becoming. The uniform is considered nerdy because we help boys who can't compete with the sports heros (in the minute realm of high school "cool") become the men that leave yesterday's sports heros in the dust.

 

A uniform is seemingly important on several levels, but if we want kids to associate us with mountain climbing and saving children, perhaps our uniform might serve us better if it served us better == if you know what I mean. Like Uncle Louie used to say, "I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'"!

 

 

How about a design competition? Just open it up. I don't care if it's Columbia or RL Polo, Land's End, whatever. Isn't it time we had offical work togs so that the work we do is seen as valuable and valued. Our dress uniforms don't conjure up images of mountain climbing or community service - just us standing around not getting dirty. DGMW, I like the dress, but maybe we should be serious about the things we say we're serious about.

 

jd

[dkurtenbach]

Bingo, John D! On the topic of uniform design (as opposed to the larger issues of how uniforms work in Scouting) -- the uniform design reflects BSA's public image priorities. As we know from the slogans and marketing campaigns of the last several years, those priorities are character and values. To illustrate those priorities, you need clean-cut youth in sharp-looking military- and police-type dress uniforms (the citizen-soldiers of tomorrow, defending the flag and freedom); not dirty, sweaty boys in muddy t-shirts and baggy pants. If BSA's priority was, for example, to be seen as the premier youth outdoor and conservation organization in America, we'd have highly functional outdoor uniforms. I'm NOT saying BSA has made the wrong choices, just that the clothes project the image the BSA wants to project.

 

Dan Kurtenbach

Fairfax, VA

[SR540Beaver]

Here is yet another two cents of my opinion. The BSA uniform DOES NOT look like a military or police uniform. Line up a Marine, a policeman and a US or state Park Ranger and tell me who the Boy Scout looks most like.

[Centreville Scout]

On how uniforms arn't useful...

 

How is a cop's uniform useful besides authority? It dosen't shoot pepper spray.

 

 

 

A memorial to Juris...

Please stand for a line of silence.

 

Thank you.