Gold Stars on Troop Flag

[theysawyoucomin']

This is not a patrol method question, I just figured most Boy Scout leaders hang here.

 

Does anybody here have a troop Flag with gold stars signifying those that were boys in the Troop then subsequently gave their lives in national service. Our Troop has 5 from WW2 and one from Vietnam. We are sewing the stars on now.

[Trevorum]

owl, I've never heard of this practice and I'm not sure I think it's appropriate for a Scouting flag. On the other hand, I don't think I'd argue with someone who felt strongly in favor of the stars.

[KoreaScouter]

Owl;

 

BSA's very fussy about what the unit flags look like, since they're such a visible symbol of the movement. Have you considered custom-made streamers for your flag versus sewing stars on it?

 

KS

[fgoodwin]

Trev, this practice is consistent with the Uniform & Insignia Guide (p49 of the 03-05 edition).

 

There was a thread about this a couple of years ago:

 

http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=39406

 

There were also two very brief threads about this on SCOUTS-L:

 

March, 2003: do an archive search for "Patches"

July, 2004: search for "Gold Star on Unit Flag"

 

Fred G.

[theysawyoucomin']

Thank you Fred.

 

Seem like BSA would have spred the word a little better about this topic.

This is surely a heritage issue. I wonder if a wood badger could use it for diversity when researching the "boys" that were lost.

 

Fred can you paste the reg here?

 

Thank you

[fgoodwin]

GOLD STARS (MEMORIAL) Gold stars may be affixed to the unit flag indicating members of the unit who died in the service of their country. The stars should be placed along the staff edge of the flag, parallel to the staff, with the bottom star 6 inches from the staff edge and 6 inches from the bottom edge; subsequent stars to be placed proportionately on that line, up to the place assigned to the veteran insignia, No. 11117.

 

Ref: Insignia Guide, page 49 (2003-2005 edition)

[Trevorum]

Fred, Thank you for the information. I had never heard of this policy but it's always great to learn something new about Scouting!

[fgoodwin]

You're welcome -- actually, I've never seen a Troop flag with a gold star on it.

 

I hope that means none of the Troops I'm familiar with have ever lost a Scout in military duty. But more likely it means Troops aren't aware of this option for honoring their fallen members, or they know of the option but they don't know what's become of their members who've gone on to military duty.

 

As someone mentioned in another thread, this would be a great project for a Troop Historian -- to track down former members who've gone on to military service, and find out what's become of them, and then honor those who gave the ultimate sacrifice.

[ilduncans]

Thanks so much for our interest in this topic!

 

From my research and related activities a couple of years ago, (cf. http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=39406), I can tell you two things for sure:

 

First, there is at least one Boy Scout Troop and one Cub Scout Pack in Boulder Dam Area Council that bear one gold star in memory of Cpl. Matthew Commons, who was killed in action in Afghanistan, 04-March-2002.

 

Second, the number of people on the face of the earth who have have ever heard of, let alone seen this award is very small. Those who have were almost exclusively scouts in the late 40's and early 50's and the stars honored WWII KIAs. I never found anyone who had seen one from Korea or Vietnam. I touched base with National in four seaparte divisions. The folks I worked with from the Boy Scout and Boy's Life divisons were completely unaware of the unit recognition. The Museum was also unaware, and found nothing in talking with some of their older volunteers. The Supply Division had the -only- hit -- they were able to verify that since putting their systems on computer, they had sold one (only one!) pair of gold stars.

 

So we developed our own ceremony, carried out as part of a Veterans' Day Observence with the two units and the Scout Executive from that council.

 

I would love to see this unit recognition used by all those units who have former member that they should remember. For what it's worth, I am happy to share the ceremony we ultimately did, (and a few drafts we went through), with anyone who is interested. My wife and I will do whatever we can to help anyone in putting on such a ceremony. (Just reply to this thread)

[Eamonn]

That's two things in two days I found out!!

I grumble on about people not reading books!!

Here I sit with an Insignia Guide on the shelve.

Next thing will be that I'll start agreeing that us "Gray-beards" Really are past it.

Eamonn.

[ilduncans]

Renewing this topic -- as relevant as ever.

 

If you are aware of former scouts who have fallen in the service of our country, please post. I will happily share what I have.

[theysawyoucomin']

Thank you for renewing the thread.

 

Our Troop is going to the Norwich Univ. this weekend and I thought about printing the thread and passing it out to as many Scouters as I could find.

 

Another way to remember those whose only voice is the noise old glory makes when the wind is blowing real hard.

 

Please pass this on.

[epalmer]

"indicating members of the unit who died in the service of their country"

 

My question is on the definition of member. We had a youth who was in our troop for less than a year at age 11. Last year he died in Iraq. Does he count as a member in this context?

 

I suspect the gold star came in during WWI or WWII when a number of adult leaders were called up. The definition would have been much clearer then.

 

Perhaps this is a question to pose to Scouting magazine?

 

Ed

[ilduncans]

Ed,

 

Unfortunately, having spent uncounted hours on the phone with three separate divisions in the national office (Boy Scouts, Museum, and Supply Division), and several years since looking for any clues from antiquity, I can state with reasonable certainty that there is no further clarification on the requirements, nor any form to submit, nor approval given, nor records kept, nor recognition ceremony provided.

 

In the case of my brother in law, he was a Cub Scout throughout, and a Boy Scout for about a year, and left the program as a Tenderfoot. Both unit flags now carry a gold star in his memory.

 

When discussed in the context of why have a unit recognition, and why carry the recognition forever on the unit flag, we are similarly left to draw our own conclusions ... I offer my perspective for your consideration, with the humble acknowledgement that I do -not- speak for the BSA on this (or any other) topic.

 

In general the reason for an awards ceremony of any kind is three-fold:

1> to recognize the individual or organizational achievement

2> to acknowledge the contributions of all others who helped the recipient accomplish the achievement, and

3> to inspire others to follow in the example set

 

If we apply those to the specifics of this situation, the objectives are the same. The underlying value of "Duty to Country" has been fulfilled, and that is deserving of far more than passing note. Your fallen scout deserves to be upheld as an example for this supreme sacrifice. The family needs to know that with all politicking and public opinion aside, Scouting acknowledges, values, and remembers that we will forever carry with us a gold star by which to remember the last full measure of devotion by one of our own, to one of the core values of our movement. Your past leaders should be acknowledged for their contribution to building up a young man who was ready and willing to make that sacrifice. Your current leaders need to be reminded and inspired that these while we are not a para-military organization, and each of us is called to do our duty to country in a different way, living out this duty is one of the values that we hold most dear. We need to instill that value in all of our youth. Your current Scouts need to stand a little taller during a flag ceremony, and be reminded that the Pledge of Allegiance is far more that just the dividing line between "before the meeting" and "during the meeting". They need to be encouraged to ponder the depth of responsibility laid on us, who are left living in the wake of such sacrifice -- best captured in my opinion, by Abraham Lincoln in the closing lines of the Gettysburg Address.

 

 

 

Here are a couple of practical recommendations:

 

1> Communicate with the family, and let them know what you would like to do, and why. For certain you don't want to do -anything- that would go against their wishes.

 

2> Communicate with your Council Scout Executive and your district professional(s), and let them know what you're planning and why. Given the nature of the ceremony (and rarity), there is a good chance they will want to be directly involved in your event out of respect for the memory of your fallen Scout. Given the downturn in public opinion with regard to this war, and the advent of radical groups who show up at military funerals to express their freedom of speech in a most derogatory fashion, there is an equally substantial chance that they will want to closely monitor public relations around your event, in order to make sure that BSA name and image are appropriately portrayed.

 

3> Involve the Cub Scout Pack in the same ceremony, if applicable

 

4> order the stars from the supply division far in advance. These are a very infrequently ordered part #, and speaking from personal experience, I had trouble getting my order filled. (ordered one pair for the troop, no problem ordered a second pair for the pack, and got two completely different stars. Took a week to sort out and get what we needed).

 

5> Please let me know when and where and what you are planning. I will happily share my materials from the ceremony commemorating my brother-in-law, which you may use or not at your own discretion. My wife and I would like very much to attend your ceremony (regardless of anything else).

 

Yours in Scouting,

--John

[theysawyoucomin']

I think if the fallen warrior's folks were asked if he was a Scout they would say "yes". I would too. I don't recall anything ever being made as far as tenure is concerned.

 

I hope you honor him as some of your active Scouts may know who he was.

 

Someday if they become leaders in the Troop they will remember him each time the Troop color is unfurled.