Varsity Uniform

[scoutldr]

One of the principles of a Troop is youth leadership. If a scout "graduates" into a Team when he turns 14, who is left to teach, mentor and lead the younger scouts in the troop?

[tortdog]

Usually its the SPL that "graduates" to Varsity, at which time a PL moves up to SPL. Historian becomes PL, etc., and the positions continue to shift among the boys as the boys move up and the cycle continues. There's always continuity of leadership because everyone doesn't turn 14 on the same day.

 

With some of the boys hitting Eagle before Varsity, they have leadership within the troop ranks. At the Varsity/Crew level, that leadership is just more experienced. That makes sense because as you go up the Varsity/Crew ladder, the programs are designed to give the boys more authority to make decisions (Varsity youth leaders have a lot of autonomy but Crew youth leaders have even more).

 

Not sure if I can draw the picture, but if you had a graph you would have a line starting at 0 and going up at 45 degrees. You have another line starting at 100 and doing down 45 degrees (intersecting the other line). The first line represents the degree of youth leadership, while the second line represents the degree of adult leadership. Correspondingly, as the boys assume more authority the adults leadership decreases. At any one point on the two lines (added together), you have the same amount of leadership - just that the mix changes as the boys grow. Thus, as the boys progress in scouts, they get more authority/autonomy. The troop would be towards the left, the team in the middle (50-50 sharing) while the crew is at the right side of the graph.

 

That's how we view it, anyway.(This message has been edited by tortdog)

[tortdog]

Well, I took Bob White's advice regarding looking in the manual and here is what it requires:

 

All boys are to be in uniform.

 

The Varsity uniform consists of:

 

BSA shirt*

BSA shorts/pants

BSA socks

 

*Regarding the shirt, the handbook allows a scout designed T-shirt.

 

Now, the manual also states that the activity uniform can be substituted for the field uniform where it is appropriate (hence a T-shirt, including custom shirts, during activities).

 

Here is the conflict. If you follow the handbook, the Varsity scouts must always be in uniform and you therefore must wear scout pants or shorts (and BSA socks) while engaged in the Varsity athletic competitions, including swimming and basketball. That is absurd. There is no way I am going to advise my Varsity scouts to wear BSA shorts and socks while swimming or playing basketball. Therefore, I am advising my Varsity scouts to NOT be in uniform (in contradiction of the Varsity handbook).

 

Perhaps that is why SHAC as advised that the Varsity uniform includes not only the custom T-shirt but also shorts and socks appropriate for the activity being conducted. In SHAC's opinion, the Varsity scouts are in uniform, but in apparent contradiction of the handbook.

 

Since the handbook's rules are absurd, I'd have to say someone didn't think it through and that SHAC is correct.

[Bob White]

The handbook does not say the scout must ALWAYS be in uniform. No BSA handbook says that! It says that the uniform includes all of the listed pieces.

 

You should dress appropriately for the activity. For some functions the BSA uniforms are appropriate, for some they are not.

 

You found the section that listed the uniform, please post the passage that says a Varsity scout must ALWAYS be in uniform.

 

 

[FScouter]

"That is absurd. There is no way I am going to advise my Varsity scouts to wear BSA shorts and socks while swimming or playing basketball."

 

That does sound silly. I'd guess the writers thought it would be obvious that the uniform would not be worn while playing basketball or swimming, so they didn't spell that out.

 

A custom tee shirt can be worn anytime, but it would not be an "activity uniform" unless worn with the shorts and socks.

[tortdog]

I will quote the passage once I get the handbook in front of me and the computer at the same time.

 

What should we do with this renegade SHAC that tells its Varsity leaders that uniform can include a custom T-shirt, athletic shorts and white socks?

 

Should the BSA allow a program in which the main activities of that program cannot be conducted in the BSA uniform? I mean, under the current rules in the Varsity handbook, the boys will spend most of their time out of uniform.

[Bob White]

"I will quote the passage once I get the handbook in front of me and the computer at the same time.

 

You might look for it at that time, but you wpn't be able to quote it. It's not there.

 

"What should we do with this renegade SHAC that tells its Varsity leaders that uniform can include a custom T-shirt, athletic shorts and white socks?"

 

Tell them you looked it up and they made a mistake. That is not what the program says.

 

"Should the BSA allow a program in which the main activities of that program cannot be conducted in the BSA uniform?"

 

Why not. It's there program they can design it how they choose.

 

"I mean, under the current rules in the Varsity handbook, the boys will spend most of their time out of uniform."

 

So what? As long as they were the uniform when it is appropriate and learn to know the difference, then everything is fine.

 

[tortdog]

Okay...here we go from pages 149 and 150 of the Varsity Scout Guidebook.

 

*A Varsity Scout is not required to have a uniform in order to be a member of a team.

 

Okay...we know this. So a scout doesn't HAVE to wear a uniform to be a member.

 

*Varsity Scout team leaders should set a good example by wearing the complete uniform themselves and by encouraging each Scout to acquire and weare a uniform.

 

Okay. So all team leaders SHOULD wear a uniform as that sets a good example.

 

*Varsity Scouts and Varsity Scout Leaders proudly wear the full uniform for all ceremonial activities, including Varsity Scout team meetings, boards of review, and courts of honor.

 

Okay...so this doesn't say should or must, but says that we "wear" them. Optional at courts of honor and team meetings?

 

*During physically active events and informal activities, Varsity Scouts may wear activity uniforms of the team's choosing - Scout pants or shorts with a knit Varsity Scout shirt, team T-shirt, or camp T-shirt. Varsity Scouts teams may want to design a team T-shirt...

 

Okay...so at active events we can wear the activity uniform, and that includes Scout pants/shorts and a team T-shirt (but no BSA socks and no BSA belt). Under the Guidelines, the Varsity Scouts who are proud DO wear the uniform (ableit the activity uniform). Furthermore, the FULL uniform should be worn at team meetings (as opposed to the activity uniform introduced later in the Guidelines).

 

So, since in a Varsity team most of the team meetings are in a situation when you could not wear the full uniform (let alone the activity uniform consisting of solely the Scout pants/shorts but no belt or socks), most of our meetings will not be in any uniform. Furthermore, under strict reading of the Guidelines a Varsity Scout would be in uniform if he wore his Scout short and team T-shirt along with a red furry belt and pink polka-dot socks (Guidelines require only the T-shirt and Scout shorts.) Meanwhile, a Varsity Scout in a team T-shirt, athletic shorts (matching the other teammates) and white athletic socks would NOT be in uniform.

 

Additionally, the suggestion that we "should" set an example by wearing a uniform sets a standard that cannot realistically be met in a Varsity team.

 

Perhaps this is why SHAC has opined that the Varsity uniform includes athletic shorts when appropriate. Seems to me that SHAC's interpretation is more in keeping with the purposes of the BSA. If the Varsity uniform includes athletic shorts, then the Varsity Scouts and Varsity Scout leaders can come in uniform to the Varsity team meetings, and during the Varsity activities. Also, we don't have to worry about red furry belts that meet the uniform requirements.

 

Interpret the Guidelines otherwise means you will rarely see any Varsity Scouts/Leaders in uniform during regular team meetings.

 

I think SHAC is correct, having brought clarity to an otherwise ambiguous manual.

 

(This message has been edited by tortdog)

[Bob White]

I can't believe that you twisted those words that much and that quickly after just having read them and then typed them.

 

Allow me to assist.

 

Handbook *Varsity Scout team leaders should set a good example by wearing the complete uniform themselves and by encouraging each Scout to acquire and weare a uniform.

 

Tortdog: So all team leaders SHOULD wear a uniform as that sets a good example.

 

translation- NO what it says is that a leader should wear a 'complete' uniform to set a godd example for others.

 

Handbook-Varsity Scouts and Varsity Scout Leaders proudly wear the full uniform for all ceremonial activities, including Varsity Scout team meetings, boards of review, and courts of honor.

 

Tortdog-Okay...so this doesn't say should or must, but says that we "wear" them. Optional at courts of honor and team meetings?

 

Translation- NO the key information is not should or must, they are telling you the when. This tells you when it is appropriate to wear the uniform. at occassions such as meetings and courts of honor rather than during more strenuous activities.

 

Handbook-*During physically active events and informal activities, Varsity Scouts may wear activity uniforms of the team's choosing - Scout pants or shorts with a knit Varsity Scout shirt, team T-shirt, or camp T-shirt. Varsity Scouts teams may want to design a team T-shirt...

 

Tortdog-Okay...so at active events we can wear the activity uniform, and that includes Scout pants/shorts and a team T-shirt (but no BSA socks and no BSA belt). Under the Guidelines, the Varsity Scouts who are proud DO wear the uniform (ableit the activity uniform). Furthermore, the FULL uniform should be worn at team meetings (as opposed to the activity uniform introduced later in the Guidelines).

 

Translation- Close which you were depends and which is determined to be the most appropriate for the activity level.

 

Now at this point you completely leve the handbok and take huge leaping conclusionsd with now facts to back them up.

 

Nowhere did you find a passage that said you must be in uniform at all time. Nowhere did it say to wear clothing other than what was appropriate to the activity. No where are you told to wear silly clothing and call it a uniform.

 

If a BSA uniform is not appropriate then wear somthing else. Just do not call that something else a Scout Uniform. The BSA does not say be in a uniform all the time. What would the team wear to water ski in? A bathing suit or wet suit right? Is that a Scout uniform? No, but it is appropriate. Is waterskiing an appropriate time to be in uniform? Since they cannot wear the uniform should they not waterski?

 

The Scouting handbooks tell you how to wear a scout uniform. If you are playing soccer do not read the Varsity leader handbook to learn how to dress, read a soccer handbook.

 

Wear the uniforms of the BSA when appropriate to do so as a Scout. Otherwise dress in appropriate apparel.

 

Why is that so difficult to understand?

 

 

 

 

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[tortdog]

>The BSA does not say be in a uniform all the time.

 

It says we should wear field uniform to team meetings, and for almost every team meeting I have been in that would be absurd.

 

>If you are playing soccer do not read the Varsity leader handbook to learn how to dress, read a soccer handbook.

 

I disagree (as does SHAC). You should be in uniform just as much as a high school varsity team is in uniform. We enforce the Varsity team uniform on our boys at all Varsity activities, with an activity uniform consisting of a Varsity team shirt, and matching athletic shorts with white socks. That is the uniform. We don't give our youth the option to dress any way they please just because it's an activity, anymore than the high school football team allows its players to show up to a game out of uniform.

 

As SHAC has made clear, the Varsity team can make its activity uniform to include shorts and socks appropriate for the Varsity team activities.

 

>Wear the uniforms of the BSA when appropriate to do so as a Scout. Otherwise dress in appropriate apparel.

 

But as a Varsity team, you would rarely ever have the chance to wear the uniform (under your definition).

 

Answer this. Under the Guidelines, the activity uniform consists of two things: (i) Team T-shirt and (ii) Scout shorts/pants. The Guidelines do not require Scout socks or a Scout belt.

 

In your view, is a Varsity scout in uniform when he wears his team T-shirt, Scout shorts but no belt?

 

Is a Varsity scout in uniform when he wears his team T-shirt, Scout shrots and a pink furry belt?

 

Those are simple questions that no doubt deserve a simple answer.

[Bob White]

"The Guidelines do not require Scout socks or a Scout belt.

 

Really? Then why did you list the scout socks when you posted what the handbook said?

 

" Well, I took Bob White's advice regarding looking in the manual and here is what it requires:

All boys are to be in uniform.

The Varsity uniform consists of:

BSA shirt*

BSA shorts/pants

BSA socks "

 

The Varsity uniform is identical to to the Boy Scout uniform except for a couple patches and the color of the shoulder loops. If you find getting dressed is this difficult how can the rest of the program be managed?

 

The uniform goes from shoulder to shoes. How often you get to wear it is irrelevant. How well you wear it is what matters. No one says you have to be in uniform to do your activities. Where the correct uniform when you are in an sdituation where the uniform is appropriate otherwise you can be out of uniform.

 

You do not have the authority to alter the uniform as established by the BSA. So when it is not practical to wear th uniofrm wear something else. Just realize it is not a scout uniform.

 

When we go caving we do not wear the uniform, and we don't call what we where the uniform. Are we no longer scouts?

 

What is the big hang-up here?

 

 

 

 

[tortdog]

I said "Under the Guidelines, the activity uniform consists of two things: (i) Team T-shirt and (ii) Scout shorts/pants. The Guidelines do not require Scout socks or a Scout belt."

 

You quoted me by leaving out my reference to the activity uniform. The portion of the Guidelines that requires Scout socks and a Scout belt is only the field uniform, i.e., NOT the activity uniform described above.

 

>The uniform goes from shoulder to shoes.

 

Incorrect. The uniform includes an optional hat. The uniform does NOT include shoes.

 

>How often you get to wear it is irrelevant.

 

I disagree. The Guidelines say that the Varsity Scout leaders (youth and adults) should wear the uniform always.

 

>How well you wear it is what matters.

 

Disagree. What's the point in being in uniform only three times a year at a court of honor if the Varsity program makes regular uniform usage impossible?

 

>No one says you have to be in uniform to do your activities.

 

Disagree. The Guidelines say leaders should wear it.

 

>You do not have the authority to alter the uniform as established by the BSA.

 

Correct. I never asserted that I did. However, the BSA's web site states that the councils are to be contacted for questions regarding scouting, and the Sam Houston Area Council has answered that the Varsity Scout activity uniform may include athletic shorts and white socks.

 

Why does your interpretation of the Guidelines trump a council's interpretation?

 

As I stated, the Guidelines do NOT require a Scout belt or Scout socks for the activity uniform. In your opinion, is a Varsity Scout in uniform while wearing a team T-shirt, Scout shorts, a pink fuzzy belt and yellow polka-dot socks.(This message has been edited by tortdog)(This message has been edited by tortdog)

[FScouter]

Pink pedal pushers would look nice. Does Sam Houston allow that?

[Bob White]

I disagree. The Guidelines say that the Varsity Scout leaders (youth and adults) should wear the uniform always.

 

NO, it doesn't. you even admitted this in a previous post. What the book says is that "Varsity Scout team leaders should set a good example by wearing the complete uniform themselves and by encouraging each Scout to acquire and weare a uniform.

 

Why do you insist to continue to make up a passage that does not exist?

 

If you cannot look at a picture in a handbook of what the uniform looks like, and see that there are no pink fuzzy slippers involved, then the chances of leading a successful program seems unlikely at best.

 

You asked for information and even after reading the handbook you refuse every bit of it. If your mind was made up in advance then why confuse yourself but getting facts?

 

The concept of wearing the appropriate clothing at the appropriate time is apparently not within your grasp at this moment in time. Perhaps after you have gained additional experience and training you will develop in this scouting method.

 

BW

[tortdog]

I said that the Guidebooks lays out that Varsity Scout leaders should always wear the uniform (whether field or activity). I based this on the statement in the Guidebook that Varsity Scout leaders "should set a good example by wearing the complete uniform themselves". We also have an exception for activities where the uniform is not a plausible feature.

 

Here is how I interpret the rules. We wear the uniform as much as we can. If the interpretation is such that the Varsity team would rarely wear the uniform, then the interpretation is off. Your interpretation of the rules would make it rare for a Varsity team to ever be in uniform.

 

Frankly, I think you are dead wrong and you have yet to acknowledge that the Guidelines do not require a Scout belt or Scout socks for a complete uniform.

 

I came here looking for advice from someone who might be familiar with the Varsity Scout uniform requirments. Later that day, SHAC responded directly to my question with an answer that made sense and allows the Varstiy scouts to be in uniform almost all the time.

 

You don't like SHAC's answer, even though the BSA site says that SHAC is authoritative (along with the other councils). You've even thrown in a few punches here and there, but that's okay. In short, I think you come across as the official BSA Uniform Nazi (learned that term at a recent BSA/Red Cross training program last weekend), and you take it to such an extreme that you counter the opinion of the Sam Houston Area Council and logic, such that Varsity scouts would rarely be in uniform when running the Varsity program, but you are fine with that.

 

But...other than that I think you are right on point. I'm just happy that I live in a council with sensible interpretation of what the Varsity Scout uniform consists of, such that I can look to my Varsity Scouts in pride as they display their uniform at every Varsity Scout activity that they participate in. So...I'm happy.