Complete Uniform

[SemperParatus]

And to think I used to spend money to be entertained this much. Thanks all.

[evmori]

If the scout or his family cannot afford to even obtain a pre-owned uniform then how the heck can they afford the trip to jamboree?

And I said they couldn't afford a uniform where? All I posted was they don't own one. Why? Because the BSA doesn't require one to be a member! But does require one to attend Jamboree. That's the same as a school saying to enroll you don't need a uniform but to eat in the lunch room on steak day you do!

Bad form!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White]

I cannot believe that any person has this much trouble grasping this.

 

Ed, it's like saying you do not need to wear a suit, if you do not have one yet, to enroll in this school or attend our classes. But if you want to represent your school at the special event coming up then you will need to wear a suit for it. If you do not want to go you do not have to.

 

If anyone else can explain this more simply please hop in.

 

 

 

[FScouter]

Clothes aren't required either. Hey Ed, maybe you and the other uniform haters can go naked?

[evmori]

FScouter,

I am not a uniform hater. As I have stated in this & other threads we should strive to wear the uniform correctly. When I attend a Troop meeting or other Scouting function, I always wear my uniform. When I was a Scoutmaster, I always encourage all Troop members to wear the uniform.

 

Bob,

I am not the one having trouble understanding. I understand just fine. But then I forgot how you feel the BSA is never wrong or hypocritical.

 

My point is the uniform isn't required to be a member of the BSA. Yet, many summer camps, councils, districts, Troops, etc. require a Scout and/or Scouter to wear the uniform. Can't do that!

 

Semper,

Glad to see we are helping you be "thrifty"

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

 

 

[Hunt]

A couple of points. First of all, "units" can't require the uniform, although COs can do so. I am quite confident that very few of the units that in fact require uniforms are doing so because their CO is making them do it.

 

But what is the reason that units aren't supposed to require uniforms? I can't think of any reason that would not apply with equal force to Districts and National. If a unit can't require uniforms even at a special event like a Board of Review or Court of Honor, it seems odd that a summer camp can require them at meals, as some do. I wouldn't go so far as to call it hypocritical, but it does seem to me to be inconsistent.

 

I think the fact is that National, as well as summer camps, are aware that if you REALLY want every person to be in uniform, it has to be a requirement, not just a method that is strongly encouraged. There will always be a few people who won't do it unless they really have to.

 

So here's a little ethical conundrum for you: you REALLY would like to require the Scouts in your troop to wear full uniforms to all meetings, but the PLC doesn't agree and you know that you, as an adult leader, don't have the authority to impose such a requirement. Would it be ethical for you to approach the COR and suggest that the CO impose a uniforming requirement on the troop?

[schleining]

Ok-

I have to ask, because I can not find it anywhere...

 

Pages 12 and 13 of the Scouthandbook and page 9 of the Scoutmaster Handbook both speak of the Uniform. And no where in those books does it say the Uniform is NOT required, so I went to the 2005 Boy Scout Requirements book... NO where there does it say the Uniform is not Required.

So where does it say that the Uniform is NOT required?

The BSA website states:

"Uniform

The uniform makes the Boy Scout troop visible as a force for good and creates a positive youth image in the community. Boy Scouting is an action program, and wearing the uniform is an action that shows each Boy Scout's commitment to the aims and purposes of Scouting. The uniform gives the Boy Scout identity in a world brotherhood of youth who believe in the same ideals. The uniform is practical attire for Boy Scout activities and provides a way for Boy Scouts to wear the badges that show what they have accomplished."

Still nothing about it being an option or not a requirement.

 

As long as I was a Cub Scout, Boy Scout, and now leader I have been under the assumption the the Uniform was required and a part of Scouting.

 

"..putting on the uniform does not make a fellow a Scout, but putting on the uniform is a sign to the world that one has taken the Scout obligations and folks expect Scout-like acts from one wearing it."

 

Jerry(This message has been edited by schleining)

[John-in-KC]

Private message coming your way

[evmori]

schleining,

If the uniform were required, it would be on the youth & adult application. It isn't. There is nothing in any publication the BSA issues that states the uniform is required to be a member of the BSA.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[tortdog]

Who is the big dog in determining the uniform standards? The offical materials do not really layout the standards (other than the field uniform). There is no contact at the national headquarters on the website, pointing people to the local councils instead.

 

So is the authority the local councils? For example, the Sam Houston Area Council (located in God's country) has put forward advice on what is an appropriate activity uniform for Varsity scouts, but you will never find that in writing in any BSA materials (that I'm aware of anyway).

 

BTW...good enough for me because the SHAC has rules that are easy to work with in Varsity scouts.

[Kahuna]

This is a fascinating discussion. I've never been one to worry too much about what BSA requires or doesn't require or what the uniform or insignia guidlines are. F'rinstance, whereas unit scouters in all programs can wear all the square knots to which they are entitled (and you see some scouters whose shoulder tabs have to be moved to their back in order to accomodate them all), the Sea Scout Manual says members of that program can only wear three of their choice. Why is that? Who knows? Most Sea Scouters wear as many as they want. I never wear more than three anyway.

 

However, in all humility, I would like to point out there is a uniform for each program and there is a reason for it. As a SM, I never required to boys to own uniforms, but I always managed to have 100% uniformed troops. I also managed to have them wear the uniform properly, except under very unusual circumstances. I do recall one troop meeting in which a Scout's younger brother showed up because he had to have the shoes the older one was wearing for an athletic event. He didn't bring another pair of shoes, so the Scout finished the rest of the meeting in his socks (scout socks, btw). There were also times when boys came to meetings directly from football practice in football uniforms and very dirty and were not hassled due to circumstance. They would have never come to a BOR or COH like that.

 

The way we did that was very simple: leadership. It takes a little time, a lot of effort and the adults absolutely must be willing to set the example by wearing only the official uniform. After a while, it becomes part of the esprit of the unit. It's a matter of pride for a boy not to "let down the side" by wearing something improper. I'm an old military guy and would rather see Scouts wear civies than a uniform shirt with blue jeans or full uniform with shorts and white socks.

 

I've seen other unit leaders do the same. At the same time, I'm a great believer that the most important part of scouting is the program. If a troop doesn't support wearing proper uniform, but otherwise gives the kids the scouting program, I would not be inclined to criticize them, although if I were the unit commissioner, I might encourage them in that direction.

 

As to wearing the uniform at the Jamboree, there is an entirely different principle at stake. Jamborees are the most public events at which Scouts normally appear. There is nothing hypocritical about making that a requirement to participate. I don't believe council camps can require uniforms in order to attend. I have never been to one that did, but it's been a while since I went to a council camp, so I may be out of date.

 

Just my two cents.

[Bob White]

The Big Dog as it were is the BSA executive committee as explained in the BSA insignis guide. I am curious tortdog, what does the Varsity manuals say the uniforms are, certainly it is explained in detail just as in the other manuals.

 

Kahina you are 100% right on your implementation of the Boy Scout Uniform, but you are incorrect about the knots on a Sea Scout leaders uniform. You are allowed a maximum of 6 knots(two rows of three knots each) on the dress uniforms only. in addition 5 medals can be worn along the top seam of the pocket immediately below the bottom row of knots, but should not duplicate the awards represented by the knots.

(page 114 of the Sea Scout Manual)

 

Wood Badge beads are not worn on the Sea Scout uniform according to the current manual. I did not know that. I wonder if that will change due to the new Wood Badge?

[schleining]

Ed-

Omission does not mean not required. I would think that, and based on all of the literature that the Scouter and Scout is in contact with (Boy Scout Handbook, SM Handbook etc), there is more emphasis placed on wearing the uniform and properly than there is on not wearing the uniform. In fact there is nothing in the literature that says NOT to wear the uniform.

 

If the BSA and WSO think so much of the uniform and its importance that is is actually a METHOD of the movement than it must be important and therefore something that should be incorporated into the PROGRAM, which others have stated (and I agree) is what is important.

 

To omit the uniform is taking a part out of the whole.

 

Jerry

 

[dan]

schleining

In the SM handbook, it states that a Scout does not have to own a uniform to join scouts. But unless you read the entire chapter on uniforms, and only pull out one sentence, most likely you will not understand the uniform method.

 

I believe that the BSA worded it this way for unit that could really not afford the uniform, to have a loophole for them. It is to bad that so many units have used this loophole, for the incorrect reasons.

[schleining]

OK-

I found in the SM Handbook where it does in fact state that "A boy is not required to have a uniform in order to be a Boy Scout."

 

Page 156 second Paragraph..

 

Sorry I did not look hard enough.

 

Now having said that...

I still think the Uniform is an important part of Scouting and as the SM Handbook says;

" Troop leaders should set the example by wearing the uniform themselves and by encouraging each Scout to acquire and wear a uniform."

 

So on one hand it is not required, but the BSA is suggesting that we as leaders encourage the owning and wearing of a uniform.

 

"Wearing the uniform promotes comradeship, loyalty to one's patrol and Troop, and public recognition of membership in the Boy Scouts of America."

 

Jerry