Complete Uniform

[eagle90]

Our troop requires a scout to wear the shirt to all meetings and outings, with a clean, net pair of jeans OR Scout shorts. No sweats, gym shorts, cut offs, etc. If shorts are worn they must be scout shorts. And all scouts must have a complete summer uniform if they are going to summer camp and/or High Adventure.

 

Most families are not adverse to spending the $30+ for a pair of scout pants, but at 11, 12, 13, 14 years old and with puberty and growth spurts hitting, they may need 2 or 3 pairs in a year. That gets expensive.

[Bob White]

My son is 17 he is nearly 6 ft tall and is on his third pair of BSA uniform pants in 6-1/2 years. So about $100 in pants. He has spend more than that on school pants each year and they didn't last as long.

 

Why not just say wear the uniform? If the scout doesn't have it all yet why must you lower your expectations? Why not just encourage the scout to rise to them?

 

The unit does not have the authority to alter the uniform except for the pieces specified by the BSA as "optional".

[acco40]

For all of you that "require" (your words not mine) a subset of the field uniform such as, Prairie_Scouter, eagle90, etc. I have a question. How do you require it? What are the consequences if the boy does not meet your troop requirement on uniforming?

 

Now, Bob White a question for you (or anyone else for that matter). I agree that proper uniforming is an expectation for Scouts and Scouters. How can the national council "require", again their words, not mine, a specific uniform for National Jamboree attendance? I understand the DESIRE, mostly for the positive publicity it sends, but don't they violate their own policies by making uniforming a requirement for National Jamboree attendance? {I'll ignore all the extra rules they add that don't need to be there because they are covered by the Scout Oath and Law :-) }(This message has been edited by acco40)

[Prairie_Scouter]

acco40,

I think if you read my 1st post, you'll see that the intent isn't to "require" less than the full uniform, ie, that they can't wear the full uniform if they desire to do so, but instead that we don't require the pants. In my later posts, I also mention that we encourage the Scouts to wear the full uniform if they are able to do so, that is, if they are able to purchase the full uniform. We don't have any restrictions on them not wearing the full uniform if that's their desire. And we certainly don't denigrate the full uniform in any way.

 

So, if you're asking if there is some punishment if the Scout arrives in full uniform, certainly not. If you're asking what happens if a Scout arrives without his uniform shirt, at this time we generally just mention to the Scout that we'd really like them to wear it to the troop meetings; if it happens more often, we'll mention it to his parents as well, to remind him. Seems to work pretty well.

[acco40]

Praire_Scouter - I was asking the latter, what happens if a Scout arrives without his uniform shirt. From your answer, I would say that instead of a requirement you have an expectation that the Scout arrive with his uniform shirt. With my engineering mind, that is a big difference.

 

Tonight, we are having a PLC and for some reason the boys seem to think that the uniform doesn't apply at PLC meetings. I've got more work to do!

[Bob White]

The National Jamboree committee is operating a special, limited participation event. No one has to attend. It is not only a uniques activity and opportunity for the boys it is a showcase event for the BSA. If you want to particpate you come prepared as instructed.

 

The councils are responsible for seeing to it that the participants are properly uniformed. The staff agreed to the condition when they applied and paid their fees.

 

Haven't you ever been invited to a party where you were told how to dress? Jamboree is no different.

 

 

[acco40]

Could the same logic be applied to a troop meeting? A troop outing? A COH? A BOR?

 

Heck, Scouting itself could be construed as "special" and if one wants to come and "play the game with a purpose" to wear the uniform. I just see a teensy weensy bit of hypocrisy in the BSA attitude with uniforms.

 

My most recent firestorm that I had to put out was with the mother that ordered five pair of white socks/red top, straight out of the Jamboree catalog, and having to relay our Council Jambo committee response that they were not allowed at the Jamboree. Their reasoning, it was listed under apparel and not uniform attire.

[Bob White]

Hypocrytical? Where have they said one thing and done another?

 

If leaders cannot grasp something as simple as what the uniform is and when to wear it, how do they hope to ever figure out the complex parts of scouting like fire building or map and compass?

 

The socks are Sensura...body armor...sock LINERS. They help prevent blisters and wick moisture, they are not for outerwear.

 

Perhaps the unit should consider taking time for parents with scouts going on special events to go over their equipment needs and explain what some of the lesser known items are?It would be a nice service and a conveience for the families you serve.

 

Maybe if the scouts were made aware earlier that uniform socks were green, perhaps a question about the unusual white ones would have risen sooner?

 

The uniform is pictured an awful lot of places for someone in scouting, even on the fringe of scouting, to not know what it looked like.

 

All the Jamboree uniform consists of is a standard uniform. The new troop number goes in the same place as the old troop number. They wear a specific hat of an optional design just as a troop is allowed to do. There is a specific event kneckerchief, an optional design just as a troop is allowed to do. There is a unique activity patch just like from any council or district activity that is worn above the pocket rather than on it.

 

The only really unique item to the uniform is the Region patch worn under the patrol medallion position.

 

There is nothing special otherwise. If the parts are foreign to the parents it's because they haven't been made aware of what a complete uniform looks like. National puts in in all the books, who do you suppose should have taught them about it???

 

By the way there is nothing in the apparel section that a scout HAS to have. If she felt she HAD to buy the white socks did she also buy everything else in that section?

[evmori]

So it's OK for National to require a full uniform for Jamboree because Jamboree is a special event but not OK for a unit to require a full uniform for Troop meetings? Sorry but that is hypocritical especially since National doesn't require and Scout or Scouter to even own a uniform! How can an organization require it's members wear something they isn't required to be owned to be a member?

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[BadenP]

First of all I agree with the full uniform ideal. The optional requirement of a uniform in the BSA I am sure comes from the early history of scouting in this country when troops were just starting out, supplies were limited, and our economy was not in great shape. It continued when the BSA was making a concerted effort to start troops in the poor urban city areas and did not want a uniform expense to prevent a boy from joining instead allowing them to earn the uniform piece by piece through odd jobs and fund raisers over time.

 

Nowadays there really is no reason not to be in uniform, and those who can not afford it should be able to do fundraisers to earn it. In addition most councils today have uniform banks where someone in need can go and get what they need. The possession of a complete uniform should never be used as a reason to send a boy home or exclude him from an activity. I know that the poor inner city troop I worked with was proud as they earned each piece of the uniform over time, because they did it themselves. Set the example with the leaders and the boys will rise to the occassion every time. The uniform will then become a source of pride instead of a obligation.

[acco40]

The hypocrisy that I see is that the BSA feels free to require a uniform for their event (National Jamboree) but forbids a unit/district from requiring a uniform for their events - troop meeting, troop outing, district camporee, etc. What's good for the goose is good for the gander?

 

Bob, you don't have to explain the uniform method to me or make condescending remarks about leaders not knowing what is the uniform.

 

The socks I'm referencing in the catalog are made of Sensura polyester but are marketed as socks, not sock liners as you mentioned (you may have erred and thought I was referring to the thermolite sock liners?). The socks are listed as "Boy Scout Premium Activity Sock." They are white with green/red/green border on top. The red border is at least twice as thick as the very thin green borders surrounding them. They are listed under "accessories" and not uniform. The National Jamboree catalog uniform description lists as the official uniform "Boy Scout Socks (red top)." Now, the difference in an activity uniform and the field uniform is NOT the socks so if the BSA labels an item as a "Boy Scout Premium Activity Sock" I can see how a mother without the years of training and high intellect of a BW may mistakenly believe that it was kosher to wear as part of the activity uniform and ergo, the field uniform. Please Bob, in the future cut some of the great unwashed who are not as knowledgeable as you on the ways of Scouting some slack.

[Bob White]

Acco you make several incorrect statements in your last post.

 

The BSA does not forbit a unit from making the uniform mandatory a fact which has been mentioned here several times. It is within the the COs authority.

 

The socks are thin polyester Body Armor liners. They simply do not have white cuffs.

 

"They are listed under "accessories" and not uniform.

 

No they are not. They are listed under "Apparel".

 

They are listed under apparel because they are not uniform pieces. What would you have preferred they be listed under? Stationary? Knives? First Aid? Camping? If you look at all the section titles APPAREL makes the most sense doesn't it?

 

"The National Jamboree catalog uniform description lists as the official uniform "Boy Scout Socks (red top)."

 

No it doesn't! In fact it doesn't even refer to the uniform socks that way. Page 20 of the jamboree catalog. They are listed as..

Crew 74% Sensura polyester/23% nylon/1% Lycra

 

How about cutting others some slack. You have a parent in the unit you serve who doesn't know what the uniform consists of, national provides lots of pictures and explanations, who should be responsible for making sure a parent in a troop knows this information?

 

A Scout who already owns a uniform needs to buy the hat, and the neckerchief. That's it! That is if his council doesn't provide those, and some do.

 

He gets two activity patches once his fee is paid. His troop numbers will be given to him, his POR patches will be given to him, his patrol medallions will be given to him, his council strips will be given to him.

 

He needs two uniforms because he will be in uniform nearly every day for almost two weeks. What part of needing more than one uniform is so hard to understand?

 

What is all the whining about? Can't you see what a ridiculous complaint this is?

 

He chose to go on this trip. No one made him do it. If mom doesn't need the socks for pete's sake send them back They cost less than $5.

 

"in the future cut some of the great unwashed who are not as knowledgeable as you on the ways of Scouting some slack."

 

It doesn't take a genius to look at page 4 of the jambo catalog and see in the column under really big lettering that says UNIFORMS, a tan shirt, green pants, green shorts and green socks.

 

 

 

 

 

[evmori]

I think you missed the point, Bob.

 

The uniform is NOT required to be a BSA member, but it is required if you want to attend Jamboree. Now, what about the unit in which no one owns a uniform. They can't attend Jamboree unless they buy one? How is that right? Sure the uniform is one of the Methods of Scouting. But the Methods of Scouting are not requirements and they are not interdependent on each other.

 

That said, I agree with acco. It is hypocritical.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[acco40]

Okay Mr. Hoighty Toighty. Go to the following:

 

https://scoutnet.scouting.org/Jambo/default.aspx?ctgy=PRODUCTS&C2=ACCESSORIES&C3=ASOCKS&C4=&LV=3

 

and you will see that the socks under question ARE listed under accessories and then socks. Yes, in the paper catalog they may be listed under apparel, as I clearly stated in my earlier post, but on the web site it is listed under accessories. Please retract your statement that I was wrong.

 

On page 2 of the catalog (paper copy)

 

The official National Jamboree uniform consists of:

Scout shorts/trousers

Scout visor cap or Jamboree cap

Scout shirt, short or long sleeve casual

Scout khaki web or leather belt

Scout socks (official red top)

Jamboree neckerchief

Jamboree neckerchief slide

 

So yes, the socks are referenced as I said (well almost, I stated Boy Scout socks (red top)). So again, please apologize for calling me in error.

 

Doesn't the view get mighty blurred on such a high perch?

(This message has been edited by acco40)

[Bob White]

Name calling is not neeeded to have a discussion or to make a point. It's unfortunate you feel otherwise.

 

You wrote My most recent firestorm that I had to put out was with the mother that ordered five pair of white socks/red top, straight out of the Jamboree catalog" and "The socks I'm referencing in the catalog" AND " The National Jamboree catalog uniform description lists as the official uniform "Boy Scout Socks (red top).

 

(and yes it says the socks with "red tops" not red AND green tops)

 

If you now want to refer to the website thats fine but that is not the reference you used in the discussion.

 

And as I said if the scout has a complete uniform the vast majority of jamboree items will be given to him. The fact that the scout did not have a complete uniform to begin with is a family and unit problem. It is not as if the uniform was unknown or unavailable.

 

Based on the references you gave, the information I replied with was accurate and given to you without the name calling you chose to use. You are not the one who should expect an apology.

 

If suggesting that the unit should have helped the parent out in advance or that the parent should have known what the uniform is (either by someone in the unit teaching her, or at the very least looking in the handbook) bothers you, then that is a personal problem which I cannot resolve for you.

 

Nor can the BSA be held responsible for either situation.

 

 

Ed

If the scout or his family cannot afford to even obtain a pre-owned uniform then how the heck can they afford the trip to jamboree?

 

The BSA is not saying you cannot retain your membership. They are saying that to come to this event you need this specific clothing. No scout has to go to this Ed. 38,000 scouts choose to go and many more would like to but that's all the room there is. If they are willing to follow the rules for the event why should that concern or trouble you?

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)