Complete Uniform

[evmori]

"Changing the uniform is a violation of the BSA policies"

 

Isn't it actually contrary to a Method of Scouting, not a violation of a BSA policy since the BSA doesn't require a uniform?

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White]

"Isn't it actually contrary to a Method of Scouting, not a violation of a BSA policy since the BSA doesn't require a uniform?

 

No, it's actually a violation of BSA Uniform regulations.

[Prairie_Scouter]

Sorry for the tardy response. Away on a campout.

 

I'm wondering how this topic got from being a simple question of what uniform we require in our units to an implication that if we don't use the full uniform we are somehow lacking in ethics. And then accuse those who do so, or me personally, to be using the logic of children. And then, go on to stating that we are choosing only those "laws" that are personally convenient, as if the next step from not obeying the "law" on Scout pants will be to go out a break all manner of laws.

 

We encourage our boys to wear the full uniform if they can, but do not require the pants. It's quite a stretch to go from not requiring uniform pants to being lacking in ethics and only obeying those laws we think are convenient, don't you think?

 

And, no, we don't explain this to our Scouts as some sort of message of "we're breaking the rules and we don't care". We explain to them that we think it's great if they want to wear the pants, and some do, as well as some leaders, but we understand that some parents do not have the financial wherewithall, or the desire, to invest in yet more clothes that they will quickly outgrow or wear out.

 

As far as this leading to breaking all sorts of other rules, we have yet to have a Scout come in and say "my mom doesn't want to buy the pants, and she says I don't have to learn how to tie a square knot, either". If we want to have a discussion about selective rule obeying, there's a lot of emphasis on the importance of "morally straight", but I wonder how many of us can go to a Roundtable, look at the collection of leaders, and wonder how many of them take "physically strong" to heart?

 

Could be it's time to move on to another topic.

[Bob White]

A parent saying they do not have the resources to get a complete uniform yet, and a leader saying that you do not need to wear the pants to be in a complete uniform are two separate issues.

 

Following only the rules you find convenient sets a very poor example of ethical decision making to the Scouts.

 

BW

[evmori]

"No, it's actually a violation of BSA Uniform regulations."

 

Hmm... How can there be a Uniform regulation if the uniform isn't required? What is there to violate?

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White]

 

"Hmm... How can there be a Uniform regulation if the uniform isn't required? What is there to violate?"

 

 

If you read the opening pages of the Insignia Guide I believe you would find out.

 

When in doubt read the resources of the BSA.

 

 

 

 

 

[Hunt]

Let me take a whack at this. First, BSA does not require any boy to have a uniform. Therefore, the troop should not be requiring the uniform at all. It can urge, suggest, even inspect, but it shouldn't require. Thus (for example) the common practice of sending a boy home who is not properly uniformed is wrong.

Second, except for minor issues (such as hat and neckerchief), the troop can't say what the uniform is--BSA does that. So, for example, a troop should not say that for it, a complete uniform does not include the pants.

What I suggest is the following:

If you feel very strongly about full uniforming, you (by "you" I really mean the PLC) should announce: "In our troop, we strongly encourage full uniforming, and our meetings will include uniform inspections with special recognition given to the patrols with the most complete and correct uniforming and insignia."

If you don't feel as strongly about uniforming, say: "In our troop, we encourage full uniforming. Scouts should make a special effort to wear full uniforms on special occasions such as Courts of Honor." Then, if they ask whether they have to wear the pants, say, "No, you don't have to wear any uniform part. We hope you'll wear all the uniform parts, but the shirt is more important than the pants."

The fact is that different units put a different amount of emphasis on uniforming--just as some units put more emphasis on high adventure, others on service, etc. I think there can be variation in this without transgressing the rules either way.

[Prairie_Scouter]

I can't even think of a response to someone who thinks that making a decision about uniform pants is an ethical decision.

 

This discussion, which started as a simple poll of what units followed what uniform, has degraded into a commentary on, what, the character of those who may not follow the BSA uniform policy?

 

No longer worth the energy.

[Bob White]

Hunt is 95% correct or more. I would probably answer the question differently.

 

Q. "Do I have to wear the pants?"

 

A. If you were going to your school's prom would you only wear half a tuxedo? You should wear whatever uniform you have at the time as correctly as possible. I think you and the unit look very sharp when you are in full uniform. You are a good bunch of scouts, and good uniforming helps to show that to others."

 

 

It's in teaching scouts how and why we wear a uniform that we begin to use the "Uniform Method". Like the other Methods of Scouting, the Uniform Method is something we teach and provide for the scouts. Like the other methods it is a tool for affecting one of the three Aims of Scouting. You don't deliver any of the other methods by "rules" so why would we do it with this one?

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[BSAChaplain]

Okay, my turn to weigh in on this one. :-(

 

The troop with which I am registered and to which my son belongs, has a horrible uniform policy.

 

They wear the uniform shirt, neckershief and Scout Hat. Typically, uniform shirts are not tucked in to the gym shorts (of every color) that they are wearing. Most of them have Scout pants, but don't wear them except to a Court of Honor or Board of Reivew. When they wear a jacket or sweatshirt, you can't even tell their Scouts.

 

Between Memorial day and Labor day, the "Class B" uniform (their word not mine so don't jump on me), is worn, except when traveling to campouts.

 

Three adults always wear their full uniforms including the Scoutmaster and me. None of the 3 ASM's wear more than the Scout shirt, but they are regularly tucked in.

 

My son is the only boy who wears the entire uniform to every meeting. Subsequently, he carries the American Flag for every opening flag ceremony.

 

Having said this, I must say that in the past year, the troop has moved in the right directions. We've finally come to embrace the patrol method and are in transition now, and are doing a fair to good job on the other six methods. They'll get even better when the other two cylinders are firing as well.

 

I'm hopeful about this troop's future and I am glad to be a part of the change.

[OldGreyEagle]

Maybe somebody can help me.

 

When someone joind Boy Socuts, there is a tremoundous amount of stuff you have to get, if you dont already have it and more to acquire as you go along. Maybe a decent tent (or not if provided by the Troop) a decent sleeping bag for sure, mess kit, compass, book, back pack, rain gear, coats, hats, boots, stove, water filtration or purifier system, and all that. Then trips to Philmont, Sea Base, Northern Tier or any other High Adventure camp are planned. MAssive fundraising projects are undertaken. In all the time I have been in scouting I have not heard many complaints that going to Philmont is "Too" expensive, I have heard it costs a lot (I am on the East Coast), but if A scout wants to go, there are plenty of ways of making it happen. You can subsitute a trip to almost anywhere, and parents, leaders, scouts are gung ho to make it happen. Seems to me a lot of money gets laid out for scouting. In all the time I have posted here I havent seen a complaint that scouting overall was too expensive. yes, we have posters from economically disadvantaged area, but they see scouting as a great tool generally. And these units pick up equipment and have outings.

 

The issue is, and you should be able to figure it out, why the line in the sand is drawn at the cost of pants. If pants are an economic issue, where did all the other stuff come from? Now, if you are in a really depressed area, and struggle to have any program, I am not talking about you, but to others who talk about how varied your program is, how you traverese the country in search of adventure yet deem the uniform pants as "too" expensive, I just dont get it.

[Prairie_Scouter]

OGE,

Here is what parents I've known have said. Let me preface by saying that we serve a diverse community. Some of our Scouts come from families who have all the benefits of high net worth, some live barely paycheck to paycheck, and most fall somewhere in between. We have families who do say that Philmont is just not something they can afford to participate in. We have families who just say "it's expensive". The cost of the uniform pants, on its own, is not a big deal, to be sure. But, when you add it to the other costs of Scouting, the multitude of other organizations that also need financial support, etc, it starts to look something like "the death of a thousand cuts" to them. A single Scout can spend a thousand dollars a year participating in outings, buying supplies, etc. Many of our families have multiple Scouts, and leaders within the families as well, so you could look at a family spending several thousand dollars a year on Scouting related expenses. Friends of Scouting in our area was recommending a donation of $150 this past year. It all adds up. Why it is that the pants become the item that's considered "non-essential", I don't know.

 

[Eagledad]

Hi all

 

>>Having said this, I must say that in the past year, the troop has moved in the right directions. We've finally come to embrace the patrol method and are in transition now, and are doing a fair to good job on the other six methods. They'll get even better when the other two cylinders are firing as well.

 

I'm hopeful about this troop's future and I am glad to be a part of the change.

[evmori]

The Insignia Guide. Not the Insignia Requirements.

 

A tux isn't required for a prom! A uniform isn't required for Scouts! When wearing the uniform, should it be worn correctly? By all means. But requiring a uniform is adding to the requirements and that isn't allowed.

 

Still a little puzzled how there can be regulations for something that isn't required. It is one of the eight Methods of Scouting. Not a hard & fast rule.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White]

The uniform is like Certs...it's two, two, two things in one!

 

The Uniform is a Method, the Uniform is a trademark of scouting and as such is one of four areas of scouting controlled by BSA policies. If you read the first few pages of the Insignia Guide you might understand better the regulations that are transgressed when you change the uniform.

 

If you are unwilling to read the manual there is little I or anyone else can do to help you to understand. We have already explained several times that there is a difference between a scout who does not wear a complete uniform and a leader who says that the uniform can be something other than what the BSA says it is. A few minutes of your time invested in reading a BSA resource would I hope clarify this point for you.