Scout Uniform Flag Backwards?

[cmarrero]

I am curious, US Army uniform have the US Flag on them but the Stars are to the front, so the flag appears backwards. There are lots of reason on the net about it, but the only normal reason was that when the flag is flown and if the person is moving forward then the flag would be in the wind and the stars would be on the right and the strips on the left. Now saying that is our uniforms incorrect with the way the flag is on it, or is there an exception to the rules for scouts.

 

YIS,

Chris

 

[John-in-KC]

No,

 

Mother Army, in the person of the Chief of Staff Army (GEN Schoomaker), specifically ordered that the flag patch for Battle Dress be made so the stripes trail.

 

We who are Soldiers (Active, Reserve, Guard, and Retired) are in an Expeditionary Army these days. We go in harm's way. The symbology is that we take the Colors, and the values represented by the Colors, wherever we go.

 

BTW, as the Army migrates to its next generation uniform, the Flag patch will become subdued. Battle experience from the two sandboxes: It's an aimpoint

 

There is nothing wrong with the Flag patch on the BSA uniform.

 

John

 

Lieutenant Colonel, Field Artillery

 

Troop Committee Chairman out in flyover country(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

[ManyIrons]

Amen, J-in-KC, Amen

 

As for the Army uniform . . . and the wheel, goes round . . .

 

When will we learn? I remember in the early 80s when the Air Force was replacing the colorful patches on its fatigue uniform (a.k.a. pickle suit). As I understood it, experience up to that point taught us that the bright colors defeated the purpose of a subdued uniform - - especially the ones we tended to wear on the left breast pocket (yikes!). Anyway I was a bit perplexed when I first saw the full color flag on the Army BDU (being deployed uniform ). Im sorry to hear that my suspicions were correct, but glad to hear its being corrected.

 

Also here in flyover country -- a few hours east and slightly south of your position (think big arch).

(This message has been edited by ManyIrons)

[scotiacat]

Flag etiquette states the blue field should ALWAYS be to the top left when it is displayed. When hanging on a shirt, that would be to the rear on the right sleeve as you look at it, to the front on the left sleeve. If it was hanging down, as on a house or building, again the blue field is to the top left corner.

 

A Google search for "flag etiquette" will provide the proper displaying of the flag and explain when and how to display the flag in various situations.

[kenk]

I was told that the military has decided that when the flag worn on the right shoulder, the field is to be closest to the heart AND such that when moving forward it appears to "wave", so the flag's field is on the forward side, thus it appears backward.

 

See

https://www-perscom.army.mil/tagd/tioh/FAQ/FAQ.htm

 

Scouts wear the flag the opposite way. Neither is wrong since the positioning of the flag on a uniform is not specified in the U.S. Flag Code.

[nldscout]

The most important thing to keep in mind, what we wear on out uniform and what the military wears is by definition NOT a flag. It is a patch, plain and simple and could be sewed on any way you choose.

[John-in-KC]

Ken,

 

That particular page is OBE.

 

Of course, PERSCOM is OBE too. It's Human Resources Command, now.

 

Here is the ALARACT (All Army Activities) message the Chief sent out a year ago February:

 

 

UNCLASSIFIED

FM DA WASHINGTON DC//DAPE-HR-IRP//

TO ALARACT

INFO RUEADWD/DA WASHINGTON DC//DAPE-HR-IRP//

UNCLAS ALARACT 018/2004

SUBJ: WEAR OF THE REVERSE-SIDE FULL-COLOR U.S. FLAG CLOTH REPLICA

 

A. AR 670-1, 5 SEP 03, WEAR AND APPEARANCE OF ARMY UNIFORMS AND INSIGNIA.

 

1. THE NATION IS AT WAR AND WILL BE FOR THE FORESEEABLE FUTURE. AS AN EXPEDITIONARY ARMY, OUR SOLDIERS' COMMITMENT TO FIGHT AND WIN OUR NATION'S WAR, AT HOME AND ABROAD, IS BEST EXEMPLIFIED BY PERMANENTLY WEARING THE U.S. FLAG INSIGNIA ON THE UTILITY UNIFORMS. ADDITIONALLY, WEARING THE U.S. FLAG PERMANENTLY ALSO REDUCES THE IMPACT OF SEWING AND REMOVING THE U.S. FLAG INSIGNIA ON UNIFORMS.

 

2. TO THIS EFFECT, THE CURRENT POLICY OF DEPLOYED SOLDIERS WEARING THE U.S. FLAG ON UTILITY UNIFORMS IS EXPANDED TO INCLUDE ALL SOLDIERS THROUGHTOUT THE FORCE REGARDLESS OF DEPLOYMENT STATUS. THIS MESSAGE SERVES AS IMPLEMENTING INSTRUCTIONS TO A CHANGE TO AR 670-1 ON THE PERMANENT WEAR OF THE U.S. FLAG INSIGNIA.

 

3. THE INTENT OF THIS POLICY IS FOR ALL SOLDIERS TO PROUDLY WEAR THE U.S. FLAG INSIGNIA ON UTILITY UNIFORMS: (BDUS, DESERT BDUS, THE MATERNITY BDU, THE COLD WEATHER COAT (FIELD JACKET), AIRCREW BATTLE DRESS UNIFORM, AND THE COMBAT VEHICLE CREWMAN UNIFORM AND JACKET

(COLD WEATHER).

 

4. LEADERS MUST ENSURE COMPLIANCE WITH THE FOLLOWING POLICY CHANGE:

 

A. PERMANENTLY WEAR THE U.S. FLAG INSIGNIA ON THE BDUS, DBDUS, MATERNITY BDU, THE COLD WEATHER COAT, AIRCREW BATTLE DRESS UNIFORM, AND THE COMBAT VEHICLE CREWMAN UNIFORM, AND JACKET (COLD WEATHER).

 

B. WEAR THE U.S. FLAG SEWN 1/2 INCH BELOW THE RIGHT SHOULDER SEAM OF THE UTILITY UNIFORM. WHEN THE SHOULDER SLEEVE INSIGNIA-FORMER WARTIME SERVICE (SSI-FWTS) IS WORN ON THE RIGHT SHOULDER OF THE UTILITY UNIFORM, THE U.S. FLAG INSIGNIA IS PLACED 1/8 INCH BELOW THE

SSI-FWTS.

 

5. HOW TO OBTAIN:

 

A. THE U.S. FLAG PROCUREMENT AND ATTACHMENT ON BDUS AND COLD WEATHER COAT FOR ENLISTED SOLDIERS WILL BE AT GOVERNMENT EXPENSE, USING OMA FUNDS.

 

B. THE U.S. FLAG PROCUREMENT AND ATTACHMENT ON BDUS AND COLD WEATHER COAT FOR OFFICER SOLDIERS WILL BE AT THE EXPENSE OF THE INDIVIDUAL.

 

 

 

C. THE U.S. FLAG PROCUREMENT AND ATTACHMENT ON DBDU, MATERNITY BDU, AIRCREW BATTLE DRESS UNIFORM, AND THE COMBAT VEHICLE CREWMAN UNIFORM AND JACKET, COLD WEATHER FOR ENLISTED AND OFFICER SOLDIERS WILL BE AT GOVERNMENT EXPENSE, USING OMA FUNDS BASED ON CTA-50-900 ALLOCATIONS.

 

6. THE NEW POLICY IS IN EFFECT UPON THE COMMANDERS' ABILITY TO PROCURE THE INSIGNIAS AND ALLOCATE FUNDS, AND THE OPERATIONAL TEMPO DUE TO UPCOMING DEPLOYMENTS/RE-DEPLOYMENTS; HOWEVER, MANDATORY WEAR DATE OF THE U.S. FLAG INSIGNIA ON THE UNIFORMS LISTED ABOVE IS

NLT 1 OCT 05.

 

7. ALL OTHER PROVISIONS OF AR 670-1, PARAGRAPH 28-18(B), AND C(2) (WEAR OF FULL-COLOR U.S. FLAG CLOTH REPLICA) WILL REMAIN UNCHANGED.

 

8. THE ABOVE STATED CHANGES WILL BE INCLUDED IN THE NEXT REVISION TO AR 670-1.

 

9. POC FOR UNIFORM POLICY IS SGM WALTER MORALES, DSN (omitted); COMM.

(omitted). E-MAIL IS (omitted).

 

10. THIS MESSAGE HAS BEEN APPROVED BY THE CHIEF OF STAFF, ARMY.

 

11. EXPIRATION DATE CANNOT BE DETERMINED.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~``

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`

Army messages are all caps.

 

 

To NLDSScout: It's technical name is a "replica."

 

 

 

(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

[scoutldr]

When I was in Scouts in the 60's there was no flag on the uniform. I don't recall ever being confused as to what country I was a citizen of. Of course, when we forgot the flag, we couldn't salute the SPL's right arm. When my son joined Cubs in 1984, the flag patch was worn over the pocket above the "Cub Scouts BSA" strip, so there was no confusion as to what was correct.

 

My own opinion is that the Army is wrong and it looks stupid. As was pointed out, the flag patch is not a flag. It is not double sided and does not "fly in the wind". It's a patch, and the field should be to it's own right when displayed on a flat surface.

[DadNow_EagleThen]

The bigger problem with the Army's flag patch is that they specified that it should go below the "combat patch" -- the unit patch a soldier who has been in combat wears on his right shoulder for the rest of his career; his current unit patch is on his left shoulder.

 

By putting the full color flag below the subdued combat patch, the appearance of a row of soldiers standing in formation is uneven -- some flags are high (soldier who was never assigned to a unit in combat) and some are low.

 

Moreover, this regulation puts the flag below another patch, which is probably a violation of the spirit, if not the letter, of the flag code. Most soldiers I know are waiting for a revised instruction to come out at which point they'll re-sew two patches...

 

MF

[ManyIrons]

Sctldr,

 

The Army is neither the only, nor the first to use that style of representation of the U.S. flag. It's a common in aviation, here's one: http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/af1/flash.html(This message has been edited by ManyIrons)

[SR540Beaver]

This conversation has come up here a number of times. Last time it came up I happened to be watching something on the History channel on TV and lo and behold there was vintage footage of a WWII plane with the flag painted on "backwards". Seems it has been around for quite some time.

[acco40]

Deja Vu all over again (look in the archives).

 

Ah, the new Army - maternity BDUs! I learn something new every time I visit this forum!

[schleining]

The Flag on the DCU's and BDU's are in fact "flying as you wear it" as it was discrobed the day they had us sew it on. That really is not an issue. The bigger issue within the Army is that have us sewing it on UNDER our combat patch. The flag should never be below any other patch, BUT that is what the Army has decided. It was wierd to put a full color patch on our DCU's too..but then we are not really a sneaky Army anymore either. There is no sneaking going on in Iraq... 70 tons of steel is hard to be sneaky in.

 

Now the real answer as it relates to SCOUTING is... it does not matter what the Army is doing, we are not a military organization and if memory serves BDUs are discouraged in Scouting.

 

The Flag we wear on our Scout shirt is perfectly fine.

 

Jerry

Scoutmaster/

CSM US ARMY (almost retired)

 

[John-in-KC]

Jerry,

 

Wherever you are, thanks for having one of the hardest jobs in the Armed Forces: Being the buffer between the officer corps and the NCO corps. Thanks also for a heckuva lot of footlocker mentoring you've given to young LTs down through the years.

 

I don't know you, but the Command Sergeants Major I've known, especially at battalion level, are the ones who taught the bigger lessons.

 

We'll just have to see where and how we place the patch as time goes on. I thought I saw one proposal where it moves to the right breast, above the pockets. We'll know later.

 

You've also brought up my one genuine pet peeve in Scout uniforming: Scouters who let Scouts wear the Armed Forces uniform, especially battle dress. Apparently too many Scouters out there do not understand the sweat equity that comes with Basic, AIT, OBC, PLDC, BNCOC, OAC, ANCOC, (formerly) CAS3, CGSOC, the Sergeants Major Course, and the war college. Those who wear the Armed Forces uniforms have bloody well earned the privilege.