Moving at different speeds

[eisely]

A problem in hiking and backpacking can arise when people move at different speeds. Some people simply have longer strides than others. Some are more eager to simply get down the trail. This can create a safety problem when people get separated on the trail. I can recall two instances when the the fast hikers took the wrong turn in the back country. One time it took hours for the group to get back together. The most recent incident I was able to correct quickly via walkie talkie before people got out of range. I am interested in others' views on this subject.

 

First of all, do you consider this to be a problem?

 

If it is a problem, how do you deal with it?

 

I can think of a variety of potential solutions: Prohibit slower hikers from participating in activities. Put the slowest hikers in front and prohibit anyone from passing them. Have the slowest hikers start earlier. Have the fast hikers simply carry more to the extent that loads are a factor in speed. Establish ability groupings for trek participation.

 

I am sure there a lot more ideas out there in cyberspace. This has become very important for us and I am interested in suggestions. Thanx in advance.

[Rooster7]

Mr. Eisely,

 

Here are my thoughts...

 

I would not prohibit slower hikers from participating. In particular, this would penalize younger scouts. It's a good bet that they'll never develop to be faster if they're not given a chance while they're slow.

 

Walkie-talkies are a great idea. We use them in our Troop all the time. This is how we handle it. Generally speaking, we ask the older/faster boys to slow down a bit and keep within walkie-talkie distance (two miles). When they get too far ahead, they find a scenic spot to take a short break. We also keep at least one adult back with the slower hikers.

 

The above works for biking and canoeing as well. We did a little study on a bike trip one day. One of the adults calculated that a boy on a 20" bike had to peddle his bike 6,000 times more (cycles) than a boy on a 26" bike over a 33 mile trip. Here again, you will have boys slower than others (even in they're all in good shape). And again, walkie-talkies work great.

 

While the above policy tends to "penalize" the older/faster boys, I look at it a different way. One, it teaches all of the boys something about Scout spirit - working as a team and looking out for others. Second, it provides an opportunity for the older boys to encourage and mentor the younger/slow boys.

 

Thanks.

[KL Wisconsin]

I agree with the idea of having the lead group sit and smell the flowers as Rooster suggests. But I want to add that the break is needed by all. We had the experience of the lead group being told to wait up, but as soon as the slower part of the group got to the meeting point, the leaders who were rested were jumping up, anxious to continue the trail. Consequently the slower ones were actually never getting a break because they would inevitably want to try to keep up with the "hares". This happens in cycling, hiking and also skiing, both cross country and downhill. It takes real discipline to make the faster group cooperate. It is certainly a team effort and courtesy and consideration to all are important life skills to be developed.

[OldGreyEagle]

In our troop we have a point person that no one is allowed to pass and a sweeper that no one is allowed to get behind, with adults at both places. The goal is to keep the two in visual contact, but this cant be done all the time due to trail conditions.

 

The trap of shorter breaks for the slower guys is tough to avoid, and has to be done consciously.

 

Overall, if your troop is a troop, then it hikes, bikes, and camps together and stays together and no one is left behind

[Mike Long]

First off the buddy system is always in use. Two hikers are paired and two canoes are paired when in the water.

 

We keep one adult with the Scouts on point and one with the scouts in the rear as a sweeper

 

We require all Scouts to stop at all trail intersections and water crossings.

 

When canoeing we stop at all intersections and every hour.

 

When we meet back up the last scout to catch up to the group tells the group when they can move on. Heckling, intimidating or otherwise giving the sweeper a hard time about being slow instantly disqualifies the heckler from all high adventure trips for the year and he also becomes the hiking buddy of the sweeper adult. Everyone knows this and there is never a problem.

 

I will NOT use walkie talkies, or cell phones on the trail.

 

I strongly agree with OldGreyEagle's last comment.

[jmcquillan]

Yep, I agree...with lots of the stuff above.

 

We haven't used real walkie-talkies, but we've used those Motorola Talk-abouts. They've got about a two mile range on level ground. Trouble is, if you get into hilly terrain, you can lose contact easily, but they're better than nothing. We also have an adult who always brings his cell phone. It's not a regular cell phone. It operates off of satelites, so it doesn't matter what terrain your in. It's only for emergencies, it's liight weight, and it's good to know it's there. It's a little more expensive than my pocket will allow, but, then again, it's his.

 

On the trail, we always have enough adults that we can divide the group into fast and slow groups. I'm always with the slow group. I'd like to say that it's because I like to take my time and actually see the forest and the creatures that are there. Walking too fast, you tend to miss everything and everywhere you've been. But, I'm just slow. It doesn give me the advantage of being able to see the forest, and the trees, and the creatures, though.

 

We pick way-stations along the trail and the fast group has to wait there for the slow group to catch-up. THe fast group has 2 adults to make sure the kids abide by the rules. There's always a point, and a sweep, and to date, we haven't lost anyone, or lost our way.

[Rooster7]

Two more comments...

 

1) As "KL" mentioned, the breaks have to be long enough so that the slower boys can caught up AND REST. This is our troop's practice as well.

 

2) Mike (Long), I do not understand why you oppose the walkie-talkies or cell phones on the trail. If you're suggesting that they can be a distraction, I agree. The use of these tools needs to be limited to their intended purpose (keeping everyone reasonably close together and to help find the lost). Neither one should be used as a means to "socialize". If you're objection is based on the "no electronic gadgets" policy, I disagree. The purpose of that policy is to ensure boys do not envelop themselves with "the pleasures of home" when they should be enjoying the great outdoors. I do not see walkie-talkies or cell phones (for this purpose) as such a gadget.

 

[yarrow]

Last year my boy, 10 at the time, went on a 14er in CO with part of the troop. He got up early and headed out with the group but by lunch he was obviously tired and kept tripping according to the SM. He was sent down with a group of boys that had had enough and apparently "picked up" by walkie talkie by the next group down. As the returning group neared the base (but were not in sight of the base) there was a mass "head to the barn" effect and my boy was left on the mountain. I understand from the SM that they knew where he was but he felt he was and actually was alone. At one point he decided he was lost and decided to go back up and then changed his mind.....there wasn't an established trail. If he had slipped on rocks I don't know how long it would have been before the returning summit group picked him up or the base group decided to go look for him. I was pretty HOT that the "buddy system" fell apart, but was relived that they had walkie talkies and supposedly knew where he was. I would have prefered that he had had a buddy and that they actually had a visual not just walkie talkies. Will I send him on another hike, yeah, but I did send an email to the SM to find out their story. My boy was pretty scared, at least until he got down and found snacks at the base camp. Ah, the resiliency of youth.

[Mike Long]

I debated making that statement but decided to say it anyway.

 

Yes, I do believe that walkie-talkies and cell phones provide a very unwelcome(In my opinion)distraction when on the trail. We usually have at least one adult who packs in his cell phone, but it never leaves the pack and boys are prohibited from bringing them. Walkie-talkies have always degenerated into noisey toys that serve no real purpose other than to annoy. I have tried using them on several trips and that has always been the end result wether they were used by scouts, select scouts or adults. Those of you who made it work, more power to you.

 

My biggest objection to electronic communication and location devices is that they all provide a false sense of security. Some of you might remember from some of my earlier posts that I do a huge amount of backpacking. In my travels I can't begin to tell you how many times I have had to help (drag, carry, triage ect.) people back to the trailhead and then the hospital who foolishly relied on these things to provide "security." I find that it is better to teach the boys to truly look out for one another and to realize the gravity of the situation that they are in. Things can go bad very quickly in the woods.

 

I have a few sayings.

On the weather:

Listen to the weatherman and expect to complete opposite to happen.

On GPS units:

The batteries will never fail in your compass and a topo map is lightweight.

On Cellphones:

Your Mom knows you love her and transmission towers are outlawed in wilderness areas. Leave it at home and study first aid.

On Walkie-talkies:

If you have to use one to ask your buddy where he is then you DON'T KNOW WHERE HE IS and you are not using the buddy system.

 

This works very well for us but might not work for others, use your discretion.

 

 

[Tiny1pj]

There are several things that this topic brings up.

 

1) Slower Scouts. If they cannot be included, there is a problem with the troop. If the older boys want to participate in the "High Adventure" programs, great. However, that is not the intent of a regular BSA troop.

 

In my Hunter Safety courses, we have always taught "The slowest person determines the pace, and the one in most need of a rest determines when to rest". Every troop is going to consist of both top athletes and couch potatos. We need to encourage the couch potatos to get involved, and leaving them behind at ANY TIME will only discourage them.

 

2) Electronic Communications. Western Wyoming is EXTREMELY rugged, with literaly hours of air time for rescue helicopters to get to many sites. In the last year, I have listened to several air rescues that would have ended in the death of the victim without both cell phone and a GPS. Unless you live in major mountain ranges with lots of wilderness areas (black timber), you may not be able to comprehend the problems associated with distance and difficult terrain.

 

Although walkie-talkies may not be needed, they would be a benefit to keep seperate patrols in communication. Only the adults with the patrol or patrol leader should carry it.

 

Cell phones are mandatory on all of out outings, again because of the great distances involved, and few telephones out in the unpopulated areas. We prefer to have 2 in case one does not work.

 

I agree that every person on the outing should know where they are on the map, but that does not mean they can give sufficient directions to the air crew or sheriffs office to get transportation to the necessary location.

 

Just my thoughts,

 

Paul Johnson

[jmcquillan]

Just a thought concerning electronic communication...

 

It seems to me that some of the most rugged terrain in the world is within the Himalayan Mountains (Mt. Everest). Even some of the terrain in this country can come pretty dern' close (McKinley, etc.). And I seem to remember that, even though the folks who attempt those peaks travel using the buddy system, they also carry electronic communication. I don't see it as false security. I see it as a optional means of getting help if necessary, and checking upcoming weather conditions. Sure, you can travel without it, and many do, like Mike. But I find that the little weight the cell phone adds is quite comfortable when out in the wilderness by myself, or with the children of others.

 

On the GPS issue, I would agree with Mike that you should rely on the map and compass rather than the GPS. But they can be fun if you've got one. It's fun to use them to check just how good you think you are.

 

[scamp]

Our troop has a majority of young scouts, so we have not been on a hike longer than 5 miles. What our SM has done to accomodate slower hikers (both scouts and scouters) is develop a route that may start in different places, but ends up at the same campsite. The younger/slower scouts and their leaders may leave from one trailhead that gives them a 1 to 3 mile hike or pack in and the older/faster scouts and their leaders leave from a different trailhead giving them a 5 mile or more hike. I don't think you would want to rely on this system all the time, though. Just once or twice to get the younger scouts used to backpacking.

 

I think the different opinions on use of electronic gadgets very interesting. I suspect the majority would come down on the side that some form of wireless communication is good for safety and crowd control, when properly used. But Mike's comment on electronic equipment becoming a substitute for proper preparation and training is a point well-taken.

[scamp]

Our troop has a majority of young scouts, so we have not been on a hike longer than 5 miles. What our SM has done to accomodate slower hikers (both scouts and scouters) is develop a route that may start in different places, but ends up at the same campsite. The younger/slower scouts and their leaders may leave from one trailhead that gives them a 1 to 3 mile hike or pack in and the older/faster scouts and their leaders leave from a different trailhead giving them a 5 mile or more hike. I don't think you would want to rely on this system all the time, though. Just once or twice to get the younger scouts used to backpacking.

 

I think the different opinions on use of electronic gadgets very interesting. I suspect the majority would come down on the side that some form of wireless communication is good for safety and crowd control, when properly used. But Mike's comment on electronic equipment becoming a substitute for proper preparation and training is a point well-taken.

[frankj]

I am late to the party but let me second Mike Long's motion on electronic equipment. A part of backpacking for me has always been the notion that "your're on your own." This adds a dash of adventure and danger to the enterprise. I can't express it any better than this but I think the troop (collectively) needs to know they are, indeed, on their own. I think the cell phone lends a false sense of security. Don't get me started on GPS. Give me a topo map and a compass anyday.

[Rooster7]

No offense, but adding a sense of "danger" to a Scout trip, is not what I call a good idea. If you truly want to be "on your own", don't tell anyone where you're goingBut again, that's not exactly safe Scouting. Certainly, a cell phone is no guarantee that a disaster will be avoided. However, I'm fairly confident that its use has helped save a life or two. I love Scouting and I understand why we have policies such as "no electronic gadgets". Nevertheless, sometimes I feel many of us get stubborn about these concepts to the point that we ignore common sense. As long as the phone (or walkie-talkie) is used correctly, there shouldn't be a problem. If it turns out that you're "out of range", then go to plan B. As for a GPS, I can't commentBut I wouldn't rule it out simply because its battery operated.