Pants crusade?

[Bob White]

What you can do is send your knowledge based constructive criticism to the national office attention Uniform Committee. At least then it would be read by people who actually are empowered to do something about it. But you were told that ages ago.

 

Constantly complainng to a couple hundred people on a web forum who have no authority in the matter does absolutely nothing to cause any change in a matter that obviously is imporant to your personal ability to deliver a quality program.

 

What counseling could possibly affect your behavior in this matter? Were you actually unaware that this forum did not determine the BSA uniform? Was it your belief that 3.5 milion people shared you belief and that they ALL of them participated here. Have you seen evidence that any posts here have been the direct cause of any changes whatsoever in the BSA program?

 

Have your comments on the uniform improved the quality of scouting in a single unit?

 

What did you think you were doing if not simply complaining?

 

 

 

 

 

[SemperParatus]

Just a thought (not a complaint)...

 

Isn't complaining about complaining just more complaining.

[Region 7 Voyageur]

The following is just my opinion:

 

I have no problem with my scout pants and scout shorts. I do not like the looks of the current cargo pants and shorts. I prefer the plain pocketed trousers and shorts. Last year national supply was having a sale on the non-cargo pants and shorts. I think that they were trying to clear their inventory on discontinued items. I stocked up. I have a pair of pants that I bought in 1998 and have worn weekly since then. The material wears like iron! I just picked two pairs of scout pants (non-cargo) from e-bay for $20 each. My pants fit even better when I lost ten pounds. The poly-wool pants are very nice in quality. My son has a pair that he saves for courts of honor and uniform inspections. (at other times he wears regular scout pants) The poly-wool pants have a different shade of green than the other scout pants and at one uniform inspection my son was docked points and told that he did not have scout pants on. He offered to unzip and show the label on the inside.

 

[Bob White]

Semper,

There is a big difference. I am addressing my concerns with the people have the direct ability to affect my concerns. The folks whining about the uniform are not.

 

This conversation has carried on in one thread or another on this forum for years. Not one time has any of the complainers said. "I have contacted the national office and made the following recommendations...."

 

All we get is "I don't like..., they

should change...., .....costs too much, sob, sob sob."

 

It's fine that have have an opinion, but at least make an effort to do something with it, other than whine to people who have no control over the change.

 

It's like people who do not vote but complain about the government. If you are not going to make your opinion count then at least have the courtesy to be quiet.

 

 

 

[Backpacker]

I see it didn't take you too long to get back to your same old argumentative persona Bob. I understand that this is an open forum not topics according to the wishes of Bob White, if you do not like this thread there are many others to choose from. If people want to complain about pants let them, it won't topple the foundations of scouting. Ease up Bobby you are gonna give yourself high blood pressure. Nice to have you back anyway, I miss our old arguments.

[Eagledad]

I'm not so sure this is a dicussion about one person's ego, forum protocal, or proper forum content.

 

Lets start with the idea that compaining about uniforms has no value here. I will give the same example again. In the mid 90's National change from thigh high socks to ankle high and there was a huge outrage. Huge! A couple years later National comes back and adds thigh high socks to the choices. I say choices, up to that point, there was only one choice. Now like BW, I had little interest in the discussions, but I stood back and watched on ScoutsL. I heard that National watched the discussion on the forums as well. One reason is the forums kind of centralized the complaints. Today, without even the complainers, National has added more choices with the present popular low cut socks and Therlo Hiking socks. Is the forum changing the way it does business in this high tech world. I think so. If you ask the right person at National, they will tell you the forums had a great deal of influence.

 

Actually most companies from cars to Cruise companings watch the forums now to see trends. They watch the complainers as well as the complements. THey want to know how to make there product better. When National was developing the new NYLT course, I got a call from the development team for my suggestion on one part of the program. They learned about my experience from the forums. Was I complaining, I don't know. But they were watching.

 

Maybe this is really about one mans opinion of what we should discuss. A forum is usually a place where people of the same interest come to discuss their interest. Whether it is to seek help to a problem, or just a place to sip coffee and enjoy being with friends of the same interest. I have to admint sometime I come here just look for a few friends that seem to make me feel good about scouting no matter what the subject. The scouting forums are also specail to me in that we also live by a code of the Scout Law and Oath. So this forum should be "Safe" and at the very least "Friendly" beause that is our code. If we can't do that here, than are we worthy to lead boys in a program based with role models? Well it may be unfair, but there have been some here I wouldn't allow to role model in our Troop.

 

Is there a specific requirement to what should be discussed on this forum. Not really. But there are subject titles for those of us that have more interest in certain areas of scouting than others. Be it Troops, Cubs, Patrol Methods, training or a non scouting issues, there is a place we are welcome to go. Which makes it easy for us to stay out of those areas that we have little interest, like uniforms.

 

Is there a protocol to what should be discussed within the topics. As far as I've seen, no. But there is the pesky code again. I guess the question should be, is it fair to be belittled, insulted, be a victom of sarcasm or even have our program insulted? Well that is what I see will be tested the next few days. I say it's not, but you know I've learn here on Scouter.com that there isn't really a lot we can do about it. In fact some find entertainment from it.

 

I like to go to different forums that match my interest. It's a good way to learn a lot about that subject quickly. There is always someone willing to help. I've also found that lately, there is always someone who use the forum more as a way to feel good about themself. There aren't in it so much to help others, but to make themself important to the discussion whether the add to the topic or not. They need the attention and feed on it for their own importance. There is one in every forum and they are usually the ones who have to have the last word. They feel above the group in that they can say anything because above all else, their word must be heard. Not much we can do, our technology allows such people to say in type what they would not dare to say face to face. And if they were willing to say it face to face, it would probably be only once.

 

So I say, blast the uniform because I'm waiting for National to give us BDU type pants with pockets that hold, well hold a lot. I don't really mind the shirts, but I would like to have those collarless shirts back I had as a youth.

 

As for those who want to have the last word, well I think this will be a real test for our patience. But, I hope we do this better and don't loose as many scouters on the forum as we did a few months ago.

 

I love this scouting stuff.

 

Barry

[Torveaux]

Well said, Eagledad.

 

I discoverd this forum out of a frustration born from learning that the Pack associated with my children's school is not a 'good' Pack. I find many useful bits of information to take us from a bad Pack to a good one. I also learned very quickly which of my opinions were ill-conceived and which were shared by many others. Sure, I let National know, but if we fail to discuss these topics openly and honestly, one person contacting National will mean nothing. It is only when we have a consensus that things will happen. As Eagledad suggested, I would be downright shocked if someone from National did not regularly peruse these boards to learn about the pulse of the organization. If they are not, that is even a large failing than addressing the uniform needs of a diverse group.

 

While I personally think we should strive to wear the whole uniform, I think it borders on moronic to have an all or nothing policy. I realize, however, that if we do not have such a policy, some people will never buy anything but the shirt. So, if we are basically stuck with a policy that requires a 'uniform', we should have a uniform that reflects Scouting tradition AND encompasses technological breakthroughs and trends.

 

Despite Bob's irritation with those of us who dare voice a dissenting opinion, I think he (albiet inadvertently) brought us to the core issue here. Choice. It is very wise to realize that the US is a big country and one uniform does not really meet the needs of Scouts and Scouters in all situations. It also seems that given its location on the body and the placement point for all patches, the shirt is the only item that should be a hard and fast consistent item. However, the shirt has as many options as the pants. (which is not saying much)

 

Just for comparison's sake, I checked out Cabela's website for similar items. 3 different types of 7-pocket shorts and pants are available. Even the most expensive ones are $17 cheaper (shorts) or $11 cheaper (pants). Cabela's is not really know for its low prices either. If you choose the low end fabric you can get two pair of shorts for less than the price of the cheapest BSA shorts. I don't mind paying a small premium to help Scouting and due to the 'special' nature of the design provided that I am getting at least as good of quality merchandise. There is an easy solution for National if they would just take it. Negotiate 3-5 year contracts for supplying outdoor quality pants that fit within color and style guidelines to make them uniform. Until enough people let them know of our concerns, they will do nothing. If we simply buy the pants anyway, why should they change the situation?

[Bob White]

You assume that belaboring the point with us on the forum is the same as giving the information to the BSA, and that is a huge assumption.

 

Why take the chance that complaining here will be accepted with the same weight as a well constructed recommendation to the people who actually make the decision would be? If they have a suggestion for improving the uniforms then rather than telling the unit they don't have to follow the BSA program, why not tell the people who make the decision about you preferences.

 

The goal of these people is obvious, they are not out to create change or they would have taken the appropriate action. They like to complain, and they have found a couple topics where have have found a few sympathetic ears. It's just a big pity party.

 

I don't care if people have differing opinions, but if you say your a scouter then have the commitment to follow the scouting program. If you say you want to see change then tell somebody who can change it.

 

If all they want is to show us how much they are suffering then please at least suffer in silence, there are others try to get some work done.

 

"A scout is obedient" says that if you follow the rules, and if you don't like the rules then you work to change them. Complaining to people with no power to enact change isn't work.

 

As my bricklayer father-in-law says.

"Any fool can knock a building down, it takes a craftsman to build one."

 

If they don't like the uniform get to work and build a new one, and then tell someone who can do something about it. Complaining is not skilled labor.

 

[Zahnada]

I'm still confused on what the problem is. Wasn't Hunt's original post a simple explanation of where one can go to make suggestions for uniform changes?

[ManyIrons]

Yup.

[scoutingagain]

I've mentioned this before but I guess this thread allows me to make the observation again.

 

Now I'm all for a full uniform and do what I can to encourage it. However, based on observation, it appears to be the uniform pants are not widely accepted. I don't know if that is a truth or a fact, it is my observation. We may whine and complain uselessly on this forum but many others have made their opinion known by not buying or wearing the pants. I was recently at a District MBU. Over 300 scouts and probably 50 - 75 adult leaders. While almost all were wearing an official uniform shirt, less than half, including adult leaders, were wearing uniform pants. How many times to you see pictures of scouts & scouters in either Boy's Life or Scouter magazine not wearing uniform pants? Now if those that have anything to do with the uniform don't read this forum, perhaps they might observe a large gathering of scouts and scouters and take a look at all the potential lost revenue from those scouts and scouters that have made a choice not to buy the pants.

 

Now to tie this to another thread. This just isn't a big enough issue for me to spend much more time or effort on other than to at least wear my pants.

 

SA

 

[frank10]

These pants aside... if they made a perfect pair and shaved $5 off the price I bet folks would still show up with out them. Many don't see them as importent. You notice folks invest in "Class B" shirts and hats but there isn't much talk about "Class B" pants.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Day 3,

 

Another Scouting skill is Knowing and using the Resources.

I will gladly listen to any of the whining anytime by anybody right here.

 

I havent read anywhere that fixing anything is the goal here. Most likely, if somebody here wanted to fix something, they need to go elsewhere. I agree. If you want to fix something, this is the wrong place. One should go to the National Office and sit on a board and make changes. Being here doesn't change anything. Remember that

 

In the meantime, I think the pants do not fit correctly. I want tailored pants that are inexpensive instead of cheap off the shelf pants that don't fit. $50.00 pants are little more than a way to rip people off.

 

I don't intend this message for anyone other than my friends that are sitting around this beloved campfire. It is not intended to change National's opinion because I am whining to people that might have sympathy or just might want to share their ideas.

 

I almost forgot. Many times during some of these whining sessions, there are valuable possessions that have been shared. I want to say that I have been changed by being here. I have been enriched by much of what has come my way right here amongst the whining.

 

FB

 

[SemperParatus]

A jovial interlude (with no offense intended to anyone)...

 

 

Ode To My Scout Pants

 

I wear the pants of green

So tried and so true

They ain't the best in the world

But to me, they will do

 

The pockets may be small

And the material too light

The snap is kind of cheap

And the fit is not quite right

Hey, stop the complainin'

Here comes ol' Bob White

 

"Listen up fatsos, lose 20 pounds

I know what is true and have all the facts

Boo...hoo...sob...sob

Time to stop your vicious pant attacks

Either get with the program

Or just shut all of your yaps

I wear what I wear

Cause I really do not care"

 

So Barry puts on a new pair of socks

Anarchist plugs his cavernous plumber's butt

Hunt's innocent post is out of control

Fuzzy B wonders if opinions are for naught

Wingnut pulls himself off the floor

Semper is left with this final thought

 

I wear the pants of green

So tried and so true

They ain't the best in this world

But to me, they will do.

 

Respectfully submitted with fondest regard for all,

SemperParatus

[Bob White]

Once after a job transfer I found myself in a new council. Since I had no unit connection at the time I volunteered on the district and was asked to be Boy Scout Roundatable Commissioner due to my unit leader and training background.

 

I went to that month's Roundatble just to see what it was like before I decided. It turned out to be 4 to 5 scoutmasters sitting around a table in the scout office and for 90-minutes they complained about the council, and national, and the uniform, and anything else they could agree to bemoan.

 

I asked the DE how long this had gone on..."2 years" he said. I sent out a flyer for next month's meeting with the agenda of the things we were going to do and learn. At the bottom was a picture of a curmudgeon and the words "If all you want to do is complain about scouting, then don't come, you won't enjoy it."

 

Only one of those men showed up, and 36 other scouters came. Within a year or so it was over 60 participants at the Boy Scout Roundtable. 98% of the troops were represented.

 

As you entered each month was a sign that said "Those who say it can't be done should stay out of the way of those who are doing it!"

I rarely saw those original 4 again. They rarely did anything to help support a unit or the district, but the fact was they never did.

 

Take a look at this forum and the people who come to ask for help, offer answers, explain the program, and those who come to whine about what is wrong with 'council' and 'them' and the uniform, and the handbook, and the policies, and on and on and on.

 

It seems obvious the majority are here to participate in a virtual Roundtable and get ideas and skills to better serve the youth in their community. If you see people, whose primary skill is complaining, as a resource then I think you misunderstood the content and context of that skill.

 

There are some posters here who can really help units grow and enjoy scouting. There are some here who cannot. I am perfectly comfortable with the quality of posters who have welcomed my participation. And I understand completely why you do not. You would not have enjoyed my Roundtables either.

 

Gosh it sure is fun to be back!