Pants crusade?

[Fuzzy Bear]

"We all know what is right."

If only there was an ounce of truth in that statement it would make me feel so comfortable and my job in Scouting so easy.

 

I have to share a little UC story. I must believe that I know what I am doing because I have been in Scouting for a long time, and I attempt to stay on top of things. I wear the FULL uniform, including the pants, patches, helmet, and official boots. (* I am just kidding about the helmet and the boots.

 

So, I go in to this Troop meeting to introduce myself. The unit has five adults and five Scouts. The adults are in full uniforms, patches, trained strips, WB beads, all with years of experience. None of the Scouts are in a full uniform and most are wearing only "parts". The adults act as if I had dropped in from outer space but they tried not to act too much like it. I was grateful for the warm reception but my point was to let them know who I am and that I am there to help. They tell me everything is fine and that all is being run by the BOOK. The evidence tells me that there are some struggles but I take things at face value until proven otherwise, so I am happy. I report to the DC that I feel that it will take a long time before I will be able to "help" because the adults are so much by the BOOK, even with the few problems I had observed.

 

Six weeks later, the fully uniformed, trained and highly decorated Council Commissioner is called in to fix a very nasty problem in this unit that was being run by the BOOK and by the fully uniformed and trained leaders. Of course, neither I nor the fully uniformed and trained DC had any knowledge of what had occurred. Even the fully uniformed and fully trained Senior DE was called in late. It seems when somebody gets IT in a crack, everyone forgets about the BOOK and survival is the key. Of course, apologies were sent all around and the problem was "fixed", the end.

 

I have witnessed enough of these little problems over the years to fill my own little book. When somebody drapes uniform, beads, and loads of knots and trained strips around their body; looks can be deceiving even to one who should know better. Also the words, by the BOOK dont always mean what we think it means.

 

FB

[Eagledad]

>>Also the words, by the BOOK dont always mean what we think it means.

[FScouter]

Interesting little story. Not really clear though what it is youre saying? Training and following the book causes units to fail? Training and following the book is no guarantee of success? Maybe professing to follow the book but not doing so causes units to fail?

 

I believe that following the book absolutely guarantees a successful unit. I believe that failing units are not following the book. I believe that training teaches the book and why the book is important. Why would BSA have the book if it did not result in success?

 

What I dont understand is why some have such disdain for the book and its proven successful methods? I dont understand why some refuse training? I dont understand why some take training courses but ignore what is taught?

 

Regarding the uniform, I do believe that we know what is right. I do believe that many choose to do otherwise. I dont know why.

 

[Fuzzy Bear]

FS,

I agree. I do not know the answer either.

I know that the training is excellent.

I know the BOOK is excellent.

 

I do know that we work with volunteers who are in charge and it is their opinion on how the rules, guidelines, policies are interpreted. It may be because there was a poor trainer or a misunderstanding. It may be that they did not hear what was said or it was not said at all. Many times two people can read the same sentence and come out with two different meanings. I have observed two separate units doing things very differently and yet both had great results. I have observed units doing what I thought were the right things and get bad results. I have observed units doing what I felt were less than what was expected and yet have great results.

 

It is confusing because there is this desire for things to work one way only. The problem is that people tend to gum it all up.

 

 

[hops_scout]

People say the pants are not made for the outdoors. People say the pants are not comfortable. Personally, I believe both of those statements are wrong. This weekend I wore my Scout pants and Scout shirt 90% of the time. When did I not wear it? Well, I took the shirt off when I went to bed and didnt put it back on. The pants stayed on all weekend. Granted, I didnt do a whole lot this weekend, but I did work in the fire, set up tents, and cook dinner all while in uniform. I dont have a problem with the uniform.

 

Do I wish we would go to OD BDUs? Of course, but National suggests we wear these pants so that's what I'm going to wear normally. When backpacking or canoeing or climbing, though, they will sit out while I don the more versatile BDUs of my choice:)

[rjcluvvt]

I took Bob White's one post to heart about the people complaining and not doing anything, is there an address that complaints and suggestions can be sent to regarding pants. I feel that mailing a letter to national is a better way of expressing an opinion and complaint rather than the scoutstuff survey. I'd love to send National my opinions about pants but havent the slightest idea if there is some uniform depratment to complain to. I feel if everyone would take time, then we would see immediate results.

[Hunt]

I'm pretty skeptical about the survey on Scoutstuff--as somebody pointed out, it lists five possible changes to the pants, and you can only pick one. I can envision somebody saying as a result, "There was no clear agreement among respondents on how the pants should be changed." What I did was go to the FAQ page and made my more direct comments in the block where you could suggest an additional question for the FAQ. I didn't find anyplace that general comments were being solicited. If somebody has an actual e-mail address of a real person who is interested in reading comments, I'd be happy to make a comment.

I have to take issue with one thing FScouter said, that he does not "know better" than BSA. I don't accept this--BSA is run by human beings, who may or may not know better than anybody else on any particular topic. They may have reasons for their decisions that we don't know about, but we might or might not think those are good reasons if we did know about them. Certainly, their experience deserves great deference, but history shows that even the greatest and wisest of men often do not know best on every occasion.

[Prairie_Scouter]

A comment was made about how the uniform looks better on people who are "trim", or something to that effect.

One thing that I find a good deal of entertainment value in is to take a look at most of the adult leaders, and wonder how it is that BSA is willing to go the Supreme Court to support the part of the Scout Law that says a Scout is "morally straight", but doesn't seem to care much about the "physically strong" part.

 

Then again, I have a friend who attends a lot of Roundtables and has some concerns about the "mentally awake" part.....:-)

[evmori]

Would someone define "built bad" as posted in this thread?

 

Also, the statement was made that complaining in these forums does no good since the people who are empowered to make changes are not on these forums. Do we actually know this is a fact? Since most of us use "handles", isn't it possible those empowered to make these decisions are actually among us?

 

Since the BSA doesn't require the uniform to be a member, one can't be in violation of a uniform rule. The uniform is a method of Scouting.

 

I like the uniform. I think it is comfortable & durable. Maybe I just got a good one. I would, however, like it if they brought back the big cargo pockets instead of the little useless ones.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Pete 4:10

[Fuzzy Bear]

Let's assume for a minute that what we are doing is complaining. Does this complaining work or is it like shooting our guns in the air and letting the bullets fall where they may? Let's also assume that none of us are in a position to make any changes and do not have any connections to anyone in authority. This should make what we are doing a type of speaking out loud to each other or mumbling to our own self. It should go nowhere.

 

Now, what evidence do we have that any of it matters?

1. The number of people that come here and just read. There are hundreds that come here according to the numbers on the letterhead. These people are searching for answers and we are spouting answers everyday.

2. Someone belittled a Scout Camp once and there were several quick responses by many that we have not heard from since that episode. Come to find out, that Scout camp had many advocates.

3. Those with vested interests are ready to defend to the death their stand, belief, or thoughts. Try reading the opinions sometime.

4. Look at the bios or the personal information that people give. People are from all over the country/world that writes here and many are in positions of authority in the Scouting community from all levels.

5. There are those that feel strongly about Scouting and have studied it and experienced it in depth. Most all of us are careful about what we say because spouting invalid information is hardly ever allowed. The reason? Many will read it and we want to give the best that we have because it may make a difference for either one or a million.

6. A Scout is helpful.

FB

 

[Bob White]

FB writes

Let's assume for a minute that what we are doing is complaining. Does this complaining work or is it like shooting our guns in the air and letting the bullets fall where they may?

 

I think that is an excellent comparison. Anyone who has the slightest knowledge of firearms understands what an irresponsible behavior that is, and a lousy way to hit a target.

 

Why not learn how to aim the gun at a specific target and fire once?

 

He continues Let's also assume that none of us are in a position to make any changes and do not have any connections to anyone in authority. This should make what we are doing a type of speaking out loud to each other or mumbling to our own self. It should go nowhere.

 

Mumbling to oneself in a crowded room? Wouldn't you expect those around you to question your stability and capacity?

 

Is there anyone who has taken training who does not know where their council or national office is? Many posters have no problem finding forums like this on the internet but somehow they can't find the mailing address to the BSA?

 

Now, what evidence do we have that any of it matters?

1. The number of people that come here and just read. There are hundreds that come here according to the numbers on the letterhead. These people are searching for answers and we are spouting answers everyday.

 

Don't they deserve real answers rather than personal angst. This is a scouting forum, why aren't scouting answers more available?

 

2. Someone belittled a Scout Camp once and there were several quick responses by many that we have not heard from since that episode. Come to find out, that Scout camp had many advocates.

 

More conclusion leaping. You have no facts as to why you have not seen some of those posters again. For all you know it was an orchestrated mail barrage. You don't know, so instead you manufacture an opinion that fits your purpose.

 

3. Those with vested interests are ready to defend to the death their stand, belief, or thoughts. Try reading the opinions sometime.

 

Who do you see with vested interests? Other than fulfilling their personal obligation to the youth they serve what reward does anyone who follows the program get?

 

4. Look at the bios or the personal information that people give. People are from all over the country/world that writes here and many are in positions of authority in the Scouting community from all levels.

 

Why then are more posters, who have all that experience, not more aware of the actual program methods and how they work. Why do so few know the resources of the program, its policies and procedures. Why are so many unit volunteers writing in with problems that almost always are based in a leader not following the program either from lack of training and knowledge or from prefering to do things their way due to all their "experience"?

 

5. There are those that feel strongly about Scouting and have studied it and experienced it in depth. Most all of us are careful about what we say because spouting invalid information is hardly ever allowed. The reason? Many will read it and we want to give the best that we have because it may make a difference for either one or a million.

 

How awful to have to be careful about spouting incorrect information. If posters write in with scouting problems, what keeps more posters from giving scouting solutions. Are there perhaps hesitant because they have seen how the few posters who follow the BSA program are personally attacked by those who do not follow the program on this forum?

 

6. A Scout is helpful.

FB

 

A scout is also Trustworthy, Loyal, Obedient, and Brave, at least if you are going to follow the program on this forum you will need those traits.

BW

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Hunt]

Well, you certainly have to be Brave to criticize the uniform around here.

 

I assume Bob is not questioning my "stability and capacity" because I happen to think BSA could and should improve the uniform pants! He seems to be saying that it is futile to complain about that here. When somebody else made that point in another thread, I started this thread--which described how you can make at least some form of comment at Supply Division. If somebody wants to identify an e-mail or mailing address of somebody else who is specifically interested in receiving such comments, that would be helpful. Telling us that our training should allow us to find the address of National is not very helpful.

I think it is true that we should be careful how we criticize BSA and its programs, because this is a publicly available forum that can be read by young scouts and others. But that point cuts both ways--casting snide aspersions on untrained, ignorant Scouters doesn't create a positive image, either, especially when it's irrelevant to something like whether the pants can be improved.

[Eagledad]

Hi All

 

>>He seems to be saying that it is futile to complain about that here.>If somebody wants to identify an e-mail or mailing address of somebody else who is specifically interested in receiving such comments, that would be helpful.

[Bob White]

OK, Let's say that National does monitor scouting forums. First I would hope that is not a paid position. Second, if we are really going on that assumption could we show them that we can put a little more thought into our suggestions other than, "use better materials and lower the prices"? I would have to believe that this has crossed their minds more than once.

 

Could we be more specific than 'we need different uniforms'? we already have different uniforms. You are going to have to be more specific.

 

Could we quit with arguments over high priced. Facts have proven over and over that the current uniform is one of the lowest priced and cost effective uniforms in any youth program.

 

Note to national... No matter what the next uniform is there will be tens of thousands who will not wear it correctly if at all and will continue to blame you for getting it wrong. You cannot please millions of people no matter what you do. Continue to do your best and the volunteers who wear it now will wear it then.

 

For those who have been unable to find the address for the National office, even though it has appeared here several times, even though you can get it from your local professionals, even though it appears in a number of scouting materials, even though it is available on-line, even though it is listed in the phone books for Irving TX.

 

It is:

 

BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA

NATIONAL OFFICE

P.O. BOX 152079

1325 Walnut Hill Lane

IRVING, TX 75015-2079

 

 

 

 

[evmori]

Bob,

Settle down! I'm sure National doesn't pay someone to monitor web sites. But if they do, so be it! It's just a uniform! Something that isn't a requirement to own to be a member of the BSA! Until it is a requirement, people will not wear it correctly! And it is expensive! Not for all, but for many. And that is also a problem.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10