Ear Rings

[torribug]

Well, GreenEagle, that is a tough one about the patrol mates. Was the scout in question a patrol leader or assistant? Did all of the boys in the patrol cross over from the same pack? Are they close-knit? Is there somebody that can run interference, preferably NOT the SM that is "old school"? I would not want to grovel to the young man that left; it clearly was inappropriate to leave the way he did, and doing so didn't show leadership or scout spirit. However, it might be prudent to have somebody in the troop talk to the boy's parents and find out the whole scoop of what went on in the review, and go from there. Bad attitudes can be contagious, and it would be a good idea to find the antidote quickly before the rest of the patrol are infected.

[johndaigler]

I would not want to grovel to the young man that left; it clearly was inappropriate to leave the way he did, and doing so didn't show leadership or scout spirit. However, it might be prudent to have somebody in the troop talk to the boy's parents and find out the whole scoop of what went on in the review, and go from there. Bad attitudes can be contagious, and it would be a good idea to find the antidote quickly before the rest of the patrol are infected.

 

Torribug, You obvious aren't the only one who's posted with these feelings, so please don't take this as a personal criticism. I, truly, just don't understand where you guys are coming from.

 

I don't get:

 

What's unScoutlike about refusing to be mistreated?

 

Doesn't standing up against injustice show leadership and Scout spirit?

 

Bad attitude? Find the antidote before the rest are infected? I think this comment should be aimed at the BOR member not the Scout!!!!!

 

I'm obviously missing something that you folks are seeing in this situation. Any help?

 

Respectfully,

 

jd(This message has been edited by johndaigler)

[GopherJudy]

I don't think the boy should have been made to take his earring out, especially if it was a small one & it could have gotten lost if he took it out. If the earring was a big, dangly one, I'm not sure if boys actually wear that kind, then he should have not even worn it with his uniform. My son is still in Cub Scouts & I really don't see the boys wearing earrings & if I did see boys that young wearing them I think it's stupid. Sorry if I offend anyone with my opinion there.

 

As for other body piercings - eyebrows, nose, tongue, etc. - I think that's inappropriate to wear with the Scout uniform along with some kids who wear those black studded bracelets, dog collars, etc. When I see boy & girls like that I think to myself that they need their head examined & what's wrong with their parents. Another of my opinions!

 

I also don't get the idea of the boys, some in my son's den, who bleach the top part of their head or the front of their hair. I think it looks stupid & could possibly ruin their hair. Yes, I'm rather opinionated on certain things! Also, I don't dye my hair, even though I have some gray hairs, I'm almost 48 so I see no reason to & I also don't have pierced ears! I was too chicken & I still am & I figured I have enough holes in my head & didn't need 2 more!

 

But getting back to the boy, if the SM knew that there might have been a problem with the earring at the BOR he could have suggested to the boy to take if off just for the BOR & he could put it back in afterwards. There should be a standard that if some boys can wear their earrings at a BOR & some are told to remove them, then that's not fair. Either they all can wear them or they all can't wear them. Hopefully the Scout will think about it & go back to Scouting.

 

Judy

 

P.S. Acco40, tell your daughter that she's not the only one in the world without pierced ears! There's 3 of us - your daughter, my daughter who's 8.5 years old & me, who's a little older than that!

[Eamonn]

I'm about as "Old School" and as "Old Fashioned" As you are going to meet.

Asking the Lad to remove his ear ring was adding a requirement and that is wrong.

We have seen fads, fashions and trends come and go. Shorts were too short. Shorts are now baggy. Hair was too long. At one time in London Scouter's were complaining that Scouts looked like Skin-Heads, when their hair was too short!!

Hopefully we don't judge a Scout by his hair.

OJ, is my kid. While at times I shake my head at some of the things that he wears. Last summer it was chokers that looked like plant hangers?? Her That Must Be Obeyed spent many happy hours telling him to "Pull up your pants." He would love to get his ear pierced. I have said that he can - When he doesn't live in my house.

I however agree with johndaigler. This thread ought not be about the Scout. It ought to be about the guy who is adding requirements and not playing this game as it should be played.

If a Lad is doing something and his eyebrow ring is going to injure him or another Scout, I don't have a problem asking him to take it out. If the Lad is my Lad he isn't going to have one. If a Lad comes up for an Eagle Scout BOR and I'm on the board, I am not interested in his eyebrows - I can see past them. I'm looking at the Lad who is a Scout with or without his piercings or body graffiti.

Eamonn.

 

[t487scouter]

Well said Eamonn, I agree with you 100%. I have told my own boys that they must wait until they are 30 before getting pierced. I am sure many if not all of you have dealt with boys from parents who really don't seem to care, the ones who need scouting the most. Along with this are parents who do care and let their kids follow the fads. It shouldn't matter what they do to their hair, how many holes the have in their face, etc. I would never say anything to a scout about that, it is their personal decision. I don't put up with the shorts to their ankles though and I am always telling them to pull um up.

[Torveaux]

"...adding a requirement and that is wrong."

 

The instructions for the BOR are the the Scout should be neat in appearance. Defining 'neat' is not adding to the requirements, it is clarifying them. Subjective terms are like that. We could go round and round about details like does 'neat' mean the pants should be ironed, starched, creased or just pulled out of the hamper. The better definition the Troop gives (ideally this is initially established by the boys themselves) for vague terms, the easier it is for everyone to be on the same page.

 

I guess I get a little frustrated by the tendency on this board for people to spout the 'add or remove' nothing mantra when it does not apply. There is a great deal of difference between defining terms and creating new requirements. Adding would be something like: "The Scout will wash the Scoutmaster's vehicle." to the Citizenship Merit Badge requirements.

 

Again, this is not to say that the board member was correct, but IF the definition of neat in that Troop is no decorative jewelry (or other definition that would prohibit earrings at a BOR), the Scout was wrong. If such a definition did not exist, the board member was wrong.

 

Wearing of jewelry of any kind is both a reflection on the individual AND a reflection on the BSA, his Patrol and his Troop, when the Scout is in uniform.

[Argentum FOX]

We too had a few scouts wanting to wear their ear rings in uniform, and I support self expression. But I looked at this from another angle, a friend of mine had his ear ring ripped out during a soccer game, so with this thought, The Committee decided to ban facial jewelry and necklaces while in uniform (Class A and B). Because this was done for safety concerns the scouts support it. Preventing an accident is better than recovering from one.

Thanks

YIS

Argentum FOX

[KoreaScouter]

Nothing in any BSA literature prescribes a policy on body piercings, and doesn't give unit-level discretion on it either. So, it's a parental issue. If the parents allow the earring, we bite our lips and press, no matter how we feel about it personally. One of my lads was at a meeting recently with a diamond earring the size of a peanut M&M. When he said he needed to get cracking to pay for summer camp, I quipped that he could auction his rock on E-bay and pay for the whole Troop. He leaned toward me and said quietly, and seriously: "...It's not a real diamond, Mr. H", as if I actually thought it was...classic moment.

 

For the record, I've told little KS he can have exactly as many tattoos and body piercings I have, which is of course none. He laughs about it, because we both believe that piercings are something girls do, and tattoos are...well, "ungentlemanly".

 

Bottom line, the unit that told him to remove his earring doesn't have a leg to stand on. If they left the unit, it wasn't just because of the earring comment, in my opinion. It was that they saw the earring comment as a symptom of a deeper problem; they may be right.

 

KS

[Spiney Norman]

I agree with KS on this. It is the parents responsibility to allow or disallow piercings,tattos etc. It is the character of scouts that I worry about, what's on the inside.

 

My son, at the age of seven, decided he wanted his ear pierced just like his older sister. My wife and let him, as long as he kept it clean and took proper care. Needless to say , after six monthes he decided it was more trouble than it was worth and let the piercing heal. He is thirteen know and really has no interest in going down that road again. It didn't change him on the inside, only who he thought he was.

 

Sometimes you have to look past the packaging to see what your are really buying.

[Eamonn]

I have looked through the eleventh edition of the Boy Scout Handbook and I missed reading

"The instructions for the BOR are the the Scout should be neat in appearance"

I looked at the fact sheet on the Boy Scout Oath, Law, Motto, and Slogan. When I looked at clean I read:

CLEAN

A Scout keeps his body and mind fit and clean. He goes around with those who believe in living by these same ideals. He helps keep his home and community clean.

Depending on when the BOR was held it might be that the Scout might not be neat in appearance.

A Lad who has come straight from some other activity might not look very neat. Should we deny him a board of review?

Sure if I as the parent of my son know that he is going for his BOR I will insist that he is wearing his Sunday best uniform. I insist that he has his Sunday best uniform on or at least with him for all Scout functions that require a uniform.

We have held Eagle Scout BOR, during a District Camporee, it was the only time that the Advancement Chairman was free. The Lads were camping some were cleaner than others!! One of the things I really love about Her Who Must Be Obeyed is her insistence on the fact that Boys are washable.

The advancement program of the BSA is what is laid out in the publications of the BSA, when we tell a Lad that he has to do something that is not in these publications we are in fact adding requirements.

There is no requirement that a Scout has to wear a uniform to a BOR. If we insist that he does we are adding a requirement. If we were to insist that he had to wear an ear ring that would be adding a requirement - So why is insisting that he takes his ear ring out any different?

Eamonn.

[Torveaux]

Here is my source:

 

http://www.meritbadge.com/info/policy4.htm

 

"The Scout should be neat in appearence and his uniform should be as correct as possible, with the badges worn properly. It should be the desire of the board to encourage the Scout to talk so that the review can be a learning experience for the candidate and the members of the board."

 

 

 

(This message has been edited by Torveaux)

[Eamonn]

Torveaux

While sites like Merit Badge.com , Merit Badge.net along with all the other non-BSA sites can be a useful tool, they are not BSA sites. The source you have given is the opinion of the person who wrote it.

The source they quote is Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures, #33088B, revised 1999. Which is a BSA publication, however I have looked through it and I have failed to see any mention of:

"The Scout should be neat in appearance and his uniform should be as correct as possible, with the badges worn properly. It should be the desire of the board to encourage the Scout to talk so that the review can be a learning experience for the candidate and the members of the board".

I have at times been asked by Scouts or by Scout parents what they should do to prepare for a BOR? (Mainly Eagle Scout rank BOR's as I do not serve in a Troop.) I tell them to look at the BOR as if it was a interview for a job. I think that having our Scouts go through these boards as well as offering the opportunity to review where the Scout has been and maybe look at where he might be heading.The process also offers them the opportunity to go through an interview, something they will have to do when they apply for a college or apply for a job.

I think a lot of people would agree with me. Still at the end of the day this is just my opinion. The National policy makes no mention of preparing for a job interview.

At times we invite non Scouter's who may be members of the District Committee (Yes they are members of the BSA, but may have never served in a unit.) Or people from the community to sit in on a BOR. When this happens I will if I know the Lad present the board with a two minute talk about what I know about the Lad. If I don't know him I will ask the Troop Committee person who has accompanied him to say a few words about the Lad. This helps the board get past things that they might see and not understand. We have had Scouts who are hyperactive and just can't sit still.

Many years back a Lad from our troop was pictured with the Queen on the cover of the UK Scouting magazine. Colin was an outstanding kid. He lived almost directly opposite our Scout HQ. I swear that he could hear the key turning in the lock, as it seemed he was always there seconds after I was. The photo was real nice, Colin was smiling so was Her Majesty. He was in full uniform and was presenting a bunch of flowers. Unfortunately the World Friendship Patch was sewn on the wrong pocket. The next month the letters to the Editor page was full of how terrible this was. Colin's Dad was an alcoholic, he was from some part of India where sparing the rod was unheard of. His Mother was completely blind. The reason why he almost lived in the Scout Hall was that he wanted to get out of the house, away from his Dad.

I know that I was at fault, I should have checked his uniform. I was so very upset that all these people who knew nothing about this Lad would judge him and send letters to the Editor.

We know nothing about this little fellow and his ear ring. Maybe there is nothing to know?

Maybe he just likes ear rings? But maybe this ear ring is something special to this Lad. It might have been given to him by a special person? If he doesn't want to share this with any of the adults or the Board, that is fine it isn't any of our business.

Our business is serving the Scouts and helping the BSA fore fill the vision and mission of the BSA. We do this best when we use the materials that the BSA puts out. Sure there are some areas that we do at times have to interpret, which can lead to our opinion being the "Law". Still I value the opinions of the wise and wonderful people who post here more than I value some opinion on a web site that gives the impression of being official.

Eamonn.

[FScouter]

"The instructions for the BOR are the the Scout should be neat in appearance. Defining 'neat' is not adding to the requirements, it is clarifying them."

 

I have to agree with Eamonn that adding to the requirements is not appropriate. "Neat" is not listed in the Boy Scout handbook as a requirement for a board of review. Thus there is no point in defining or clarifying it. Boys dont read the Advancement Committee policies book.

 

Scout Spirit is a requirement and a boys adherence to the Scout Law is a part of Scout Spirit. The "clean" law seems to apply, maybe "courteous" too.

 

In this case, the board member imposed a requirement that the board of review would not start unless the boy removed the earring. The boy was denied a review. That action is totally indefensible.

 

Its interesting to note too that "Scout Spirit" is not even a requirement for the Tenderfoot rank.

 

[torribug]

JohnD,

We agree to most of this; please read my earlier posts. The reviewer was wrong. I am glad the scout stood up for himself when asked to do something that he wasn't comfortable with, and that clearly wasn't a part of the requirements. It was the WAY that he refused that I have a problem with. Walking out of the board and then quitting the troop altogether without talking it over with troop leaders - or requesting a different reviewer - is where I see poor leadership and perhaps lack of scout spirit. "If you don't like something, quit" kind of a thing, when it might have been possible to try to change things. As far as contagion goes, I think that if the patrol mates see that quitting just because they don't like something is a FIRST course of action, the patrol will thin out rather quickly. Perhaps I am "oldschool" in thinking that it's best to try and work things out instead of being a quitter.

 

Torveaux and Fox,

If the troop guidelines had stated in advance that earrings were not to be worn, then I might not have as much of an issue with this whole thing, because that would have been an understood rule before the boy joined the troop. He could have made his choice whether or not to join that particular troop based on the known rules that he had to follow. However, according to GreenEagle, the committee has in the past reviewed tatooed and bejeweled boys; one made it to Eagle a couple of years ago. The person in the BOR was flat-out wrong to make up rules as s/he went along based on their own personal preferences - ESPECIALLY when there was an earlier precedent set.

 

 

[t487scouter]

Troop bylaws, in my opinion, should be written to protect the youth and the troop. To exclude a scout because of a personal choice he, or his parents has made, in my opinion is wrong. From my prospective, there are a few different types of scouts. Of these types are boys who are involved in many other activities (sports, band, etc) and those which scouts is all they have. I am guessing the scout who walked out, although I feel it should have never come to this, was involved in other activities and could do without scouts. If scouting was all the boy had I think he would have been devastated, asking why, and tried to reason with the SM, comittee or BOR.

 

Argentum FOX, sorry to hear about your friend. Again, where do we draw the line here. One could argue that long hair could be a danger, what about baggie clothes? You mentioned that your scouts are not allowed to have ear rings in class A and B but what about the rest of the time? I am more concerned about my boys getting hurt when they are not in uniform, seems in plain clothes on campouts and such, that they are the most rowdy.