Making the uniform choice

[MickMick]

A few people don't like the uniform because it is a uniform. A few don't like it because they are required to wear it. Several do not like it because it is costly. Several do not like it because it is uncomfortable, impracticle, & outdated. I wear the uniform and have no problem doing so. Boy Scouts is a uniformed program, after all. The thing with the Uniform is that it is appealing to those over 30 and not those under 20. I believe that it should be redesigned with the outdoors in mind. Most uniforms in most organizations are designed to meet the needs of the organization. Most are practicle. I believe the Scout Uniform should stand out, it should look sharp, & it should make everyone who wears it feel pride for doing so. The present uniform was designed over 20 years ago. How many people do you know who wears the same style clothes they wore in the 70's or 80's? Not many. It should be redesigned with todays youth in mind.

[madkins007]

I wear and encourage the full uniform, proper insignia, etc. When parts don't fit well (ie- belt), I try to find as close a substiture as I can to maintain the look.

 

Nonetheless, I strongly dislike the uniform as it exists physically and conceptually.

 

a.) The idea that a uniform needs to be head to toe- Baden-Powell certainly did not think so. His uniform recommendation was a shirt and a kerchief (and a stave)- enough to identify the person as a Scout without getting legalistic about it. The US is one of the few countries to require such a detailed outfit.

 

b.) The idea that the uniform needs to be from the official suppliers only- look alikes are not uniform (even when available). This smacks of a profit motive- even if the uniform is priced such that there is not a ton of profit in any one item (except perhaps the shirt-jacs and campaign hats).

 

c.) Uniforms for an activity-based program that are more designed for meetings than for the outdoors- the the point that almost every unit has 'activity unforms' ASIDE from the 'real' uniform.

 

d.) Non-participatory nature of the uniforms. Even my kid's private school uniforms offer a variety of personal or class choices. As my kids go through school, I have noticed an interesting trend. 15 years ago, there were no choices and the uniforms were pretty nerdy. My kids fought tooth and nail and the school made decent money on 'pay to dress down' days. Over the years, they added more choices, made the clothing choices more functional and comfortable, and now- my kids rarely fight over the uniforms- and often skip the dress-down days.

 

e.) I am unhappy with fit, cut/design, durability, and cost issues- but not to the extent of making a big issue out of it.

 

f.) I am always a bit amazed at some other uniform comparisons. I don't feel it is entirely equal. Sports uniforms are designed for some specific things in mind, and a lot of such uniforms are ugly or uncomfortable to the point that many kids won't wear them a second longer than necessary. Military, etc. uniforms are worn by people paid to wear them.

 

g.) The BSA itself seems ambivilant about the uniforms. They do not require unforms to be a member, but require that they be worn right. They want clean looking uniforms and issue patches for everything they can think of. They claim that the uniform is a good activity uniform and sell seperate activity uniform parts, etc., etc., etc.

 

I look forward to the very unlikely day that the BSA goes with a uniform shirt (that works for both meetings and camping in), and 'dress code' pants, hats, etc.

[Lynda J]

THe entire point of it being a uniform is that everyone should pretty much look the same.

The only part of the uniform I don't care for is the pants. The pockets are about a worthless as they come. They need to have cargo pockets down on the side. My Pocket knife will hardly fit in the "small" pockets. And if I put keys or anything else in the other pockets then when I sit down they poke into my leg. And no they aren't to tight. Just poorly designed. Kevin loves his uniform but complains about the pockets too.

 

 

[Lynda J]

IMHO many times the problem with boys wearing their uniform is the parents. They complain about the expense, they complain about the pants look.

The boys get the message from the parents and suddenly don't want to wear their uniforms.

Examply. One of our boys always wore his uniform.

Mom's new boyfriend made the comment he looked like a dork in it. Suddenly he doesn't want to wear the uniform.

 

Adults set the standard.

[ehcalum]

The uniform mean different things to people. Some like it because it shows they are a member of a group, others hate it for that same reason. Some don't wear it due to the pants, shirt or what have you. A Uniform was created to unify people. Individualism (sp sorry) is a great thing, and can still be expressed when wearing the uniform. The BSA is funny with its uniforms, it doesnt demand uniform wear but its pretty darn hard to advance without one. Yes the uniform is overprices, I can buy sea scout whites for about 35 bucks. National does need to do something about the price, but hey thats what comes when you make stuff in the USA and sell to the lowest bidder. If people looked more into the meaning of the uniform and its history then people, might be willing to work with what we have.

 

Sides, I hate the bsa cap, web belt and socks. Cant wear cotton socks unless you want to smell my feet 4 counties over. Instead I wear green smartwools that look similar to the ones the scoutshop sells and are 10 bucks cheaper . I wear a leather belt I made at the 1997 Jamboree, and my wood badge hat that my patrol embroidered an Antelope, a stars and stripe Flur de Lis, and our slogan "Catch us if you can"

[Eamonn]

Hi Mike

Welcome to the forum.

Changes have been made to the uniform over the years.

No matter what a new uniform was like it is not going to be what everyone wants. Looking at the new uniforms that some countries have come up and listening to the comments, I hear a lot of people say that these new uniforms look like a fast food uniform.

The small town I live in has a pop of 4,700 and four Troops. The kids all attend the same HS and the incomes of the families in the Troops are about the same. We don't have a Troop of rich kids and a Troop of poor kids.

One Troop a new one only about 6 years old has all the Scouts in uniform, one has about half and the other two are a bunch of ragamuffins.

In the end it all comes down to what people think is important.

Those who look at the new troop (an off spring of the pack I used to serve as CM) Look at these guys who are really doing a good job of both following and delivering the program and say it's all because they don't know any better!! Meanwhile this Troop which started with 8 Webelos Scouts crossing over, now has over 30 Boy Scouts while at least two of the other Troops are slowly but surely dieing.

The SM of this new Troop, my old Assistant Cubmaster, was never a Scout, he doesn't lead by making threats such as "No Uniform -No Meeting" Sure there is an expectation that everyone will wear the uniform. The adults and the Scouts see it as a matter of Troop pride. Some of the older Scouts are into the dark clothes, black T-shirts and whatever that trend is, some are into the over-sized shorts and clothes that seem to half a dozen sizes too big, but when I see them at Scouting functions they are in uniform.

It all comes down to leadership.

Eamonn

[Bob White]

"Adults set the standard."

 

Then why don't kids dress like their parents?

 

Adults help form the attitudes and values. Individuals determine their own standards. A scout who wants to wear a complete uniform will wear it better than a scout who is made to wear it.

 

Good leaders help the group to understand the purpose of the uniform and can give scouts positive motivation and rewards to wear it.

 

You don't know anyone who dresses like they did 20 years ago?

The Chicago Cubs come to mind, the Pope, jockeys, priests, The Marine Corps dress uniform, the police in my town, the VFW (especialy the ladies auxilliary), the Shriners, Sailors on the Constitution (Old Ironsides), the US Continental Army Band, The Swiss Guard, my uncle Bernie, just to name a few.

 

I fully expect a major uniform change as we approach the BSA's 100th anniversary. Interstingly enough, once it happens the same folks who find reason to not wear this uniform, will find reasons to not wear the new one.

 

 

[Hunt]

"You don't know anyone who dresses like they did 20 years ago?

The Chicago Cubs come to mind, the Pope, jockeys, priests, The Marine Corps dress uniform, the police in my town, the VFW (especialy the ladies auxilliary), the Shriners, Sailors on the Constitution (Old Ironsides), the US Continental Army Band, The Swiss Guard, my uncle Bernie, just to name a few."

 

I think you prove the point. Which of those outfits do you think appeals the most to teen-age boys? Actually, I think the Swiss Guard uniforms are a pretty good analogy for the current BSA uniform--they look good during ceremonial occasions, but they don't appear to be very practical for field work.

 

I should add that very few of the criticisms of the current uniform I've read here from adult Scouters have anything to do with how the uniform looks--the few that I recall are likely to say that previous versions of the uniform looked better.

[Bob White]

Hunt, have you any experience or even a concept of what it takes to uniform MILLIONS of people. The cost? The Logistics?

 

Not to mention the fact that many of the groups I mentioned dress the same way out of respect for the history represented by their uniform. Do you think there might be elements of that philosophy in the evolution of the BSA uniform? Do really think that no teenager wants to someday be a Swiss Guard, or a Marine, or a priest?

 

If we had more unit leaders who put as much thought and effort into what is inside the uniform as they do in what the uniform is we would have a much better local program for our scouts. The uniform only represents the program, what happens at your next meeting determines the quality of the program not what the uniform is.

 

 

[MickMick]

Just because a scouter does not like the uniform does not make him less of a leader. Their are lots of leaders who do not like the uniform and still wear them, without much or no complaint. Then again their are several who do not wear them at all, and then again some who do. None of these people are less of a leader because they think of ways to improve scouts. The uniform was changed years ago in an effort to improve. What is wrong with continously striving to improve? I myself am proud to be a part of the BSA. I believe it is one of the best organizations to help boys become good men. I do not however let my pride interfere with growth and change. The most important thing that lots of leaders forget is that this is a boy led program not an adult led and we should follow the wishes of said scouts.

[Bob White]

Mick,

The last uniform change wasn't the only one there has ever been. The uniform has changed a few times. The scouters who didn't wear a full uniform before did not suddenly start wearing a full unirom when this one came out, and the ones who don't wear it now are unlikey to wear the next one.

 

This isn't really about the style of the uniform, it is about the person who chooses wear it, or chooses not to.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Torveaux]

Excellent point on the Swiss Guards. Those performing the ceremonial function wear the old uniform. The guys doing the real security work do not.

 

priests 'uniforms' have also changed, but that is beside the point.

 

As mentioned earlier, comparisons to uniforms for paid positions do not really hold water.

 

I also resent the comments that insinuate that everyone who takes issue with the uniform pants is in the 'I hate uniforms' camp. I love uniforms. If it was about uniforms, the complaints would not be nearly universally about the pants. The whole pants as part of the uniform is an artificial construct of uniforming. It may be the official uniform, but it is only so just because. BSA does not have a long storied history of exactly the same uniform (ala ceremonial guards), the uniform has changed significantly over the years. I think sharp uniform pants look sharp and should be worn. The current pants are not sharp and detract from the look. As for them being 'uniform' they do not fit that description either as some wear the really old pants, others wear wools and some the cottons. They do not look any more uniform than requiring a certain shade of pants. I also understand that the pants as currently constructed are an obstacle and distraction to the program. Sure, there are a few that will not wear any uniform pants, but they also tend to be those who do not volunteer, either.

 

At the end of the day, the uniform as a whole is great. The problem is primarily rooted in a few hard-core scouters that only see the uniform as that which they remember and cannot see outside their precious little box. If the BSA came out tomorrow saying that blue jeans were acceptable uniform wear, it would not damage the program whatsoever. (personally, I prefer that they go with a 'pick-your-own' pant with the official color scheme) Non-scouting people do not see the uniform as the pants, they see the shirt, the neckerchief, and the hat.

 

What I ask from my scouts is that they 'do their best'. I do not wear the official pants, but I wear similar dockers (actually they are a cheap knock-off of Dockers). If someone gave me a pair of uniform pants I would wear them, but I am too thrifty to waste money that way.

 

 

[madkins007]

"The entire point of it being a uniform is that everyone should pretty much look the same." (Lynda J quote, but echoed by others)

 

Uniforms in general accomplish certain goals:

- Making the wearer a member of a group

- 'Leveling the playing field' of the wearers, making them at least more equal.

- Convey some sort of message to the viewer (professional, threat, authority, servant, etc.)

 

Nothing implicit in the definition of uniform, or in our description of uniforms in the Methods of Scouting that requires that the uniform a.) include pants, socks, etc.; or b.) be purchased from a single supply source.

 

I believe we would get better uniforming results if we focused on the 'waist up' being the 'official uniform' brand items, with dress codes for the pants. I.e.- "Scout pants or shorts will be solid color olive slacks with no pleats or hems. Examples of appropriate pants or shorts would include (insert list here)".

 

(Of course, I think we could find a better shirt, also- but that is just my opinion!)

[FScouter]

I think we would get better uniforming results if adult leaders would accept the uniform as it is and wear it correctly. If it changes in the next 10 years, so be it. But today the uniform is what it is. We can wear it and hate it, or don't wear it and hate it. Or take a positive view and wear it and enjoy it. It's more fun to enjoy Scouting than wistfully wishing it was something it is not. Negativity is so depressing.

[packsaddle]

I like the pants and the shirt. I have no big problem with the uniform as it is. I actually like the fit, feel, and appearance. The socks could be better (or at least a bigger variety of materials). But it's not a big deal for me. Guess that takes me out of the discussion, doesn't it? Oh well...