Is the uniform a hinderance to retaining boys?

[KoreaScouter]

NIscouter:

 

Your committee members need to be swatted with a rolled-up newspaper! You don't say whether you're a Pack or a Troop, but I'm guessing a Pack, because by the time these adults have been around long enough to be on a Troop committee, they should "get it".

 

The uniform is not a hindrance, it's a method, just like advancement, leadership development, the outdoors, et. al. It cannot in and of itself drive boys away. In a few cases, the cost might (coming from a SM and a dad who just spent $45 on a pair of adult uniform long pants!), but there are "experienced uniform" options for that. I've said it before, this ain't a cafeteria, where you can take your choice of which methods you use. It's a blue plate special, where you get everything all rolled up together.

 

Consider the lad who your committee thinks is turned off by the uniform, and ask yourself a question. How old is he now, and was he turned off by it two years ago? Three? Five? What changed? The uniform didn't, and at their core, the boys didn't. What might change is their attitudes toward it, their self-esteem and confidence, and susceptibility to peer pressure and attention. But, aren't those all things that we're supposed to be helping them deal with? If your exit interviews tell you they're leaving because of the uniform, you can be assured it's not the uniform.

 

I can promise you this: if your committee members are repeating that claptrap, you can bet your boys are, too, at least the ones that live with your committee members. I know that as a high school-age Star Scout, they're not going to fall all over themselves to wear the uniform to school or church during Scout Week like they did when they were Cubs. But, if they're reluctant to wear it at Troop, District, Council, Lodge, and other Scout activities, I can only refer you the paragraph above.

 

Picture this: last weekend, little KS, our Troop OA rep, is at Section Conclave on the North Shore. They're supposed to be finished at 2 on Sunday, and I'm in Mililani running errands. He calls me on his cell at 11, saying they finished early, and can I pick him up. I'm basically halfway there, so I scoot up in my gym shorts, Hawaii Air Guard T-shirt, and slippahs. He's waiting, in full uniform complete with OA sash (didn't want to pack all of it, I suppose). Backpack and tent in the truck bed, and him in the cab. I offer to stop at the Starbucks in Foodland at the bottom of the hill and get him a Frappucino -- of course he takes me up on it. We walk into the shop and into a mid-day Sunday crowd of surfers, beachcombers, swimmers, hangovers, and other assorted liberal Bohemians -- what you might consider a tough crowd and not over-represented on FOS rosters. But, just when I thought he might be self-conscious, and we'd get at least a scornful look and maybe a snide remark, there was nothing of the sort. He was perfectly at ease, and if the crowd noticed his uniform, the only one in the shop, you'd never know it. Environment? Maybe, a little bit. But, I'm reminded of the old saying that life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you react to it. If we make uniform wear a drama rather than something we do and it goes without saying, than uniform wear will be a drama...

 

KS

[Fuzzy Bear]

The Military controversy has been with Scouting since its' inception and remains today. Scouting has badges that simply look better on the uniform shirt than on civilian clothes. Some units prefer jeans to Scout pants but that generally is a functional answer rather than a protest. The pants aren't made for the outdoors. The uniform is a compromise to be all things for all occasions. It doesn't work and that is frustrating.

 

The Uniform is one of the eight Methods of Scouting. If you would like to reach the three Aims of Scouting, then use all of the Methods. Setting the Example is one of the Skills of Leadership. If you want boys to follow your example, wear the Uniform. By not wearing the uniform, you deny access to part of the three Aims and the example you set for Scouts will be less than what the program has for them.

 

Why?

Scouting is not perfect but I have witnessed remarkable results both in others and in myself. As far as the uniform not being for adults, most would rather wear their own uniform from thier social or economic class of origin. People would like to be known for what they are outside of the program which makes maintaining the existing pecking order easier. It also allows sense of personal wealth or accomplishment instead of the training and knowledge gained from the BSA. The Uniform levels those personal presuppositions and allows for a new identity to be established based on achievement and knowledge from within the program. The adults become known as BSA leaders rather than an identity from the outside.

 

When we speak of sitting around the campfire, there is a leveling effect that is similar to what the uniform method accomplishes. Those that sit around the fire probably would have never have chosen that activity because of who they are outside the program. Each seat acquires a new equality that was not there before, which gives it a type of nobility. Everyone is heard because they are part of the program and not because of who they are outside the program. People remain courteous to each other because there is a uniform Law that all know and respect. We can meet another Scout or Scouter from another part of the country and irrespective of differences in religion or politics or social class, we can come together and communicate effectively without the problems inherent in such a situation otherwise.

 

I personally don't like the uniform but I will purchase it and wear it fully and properly because of these very good reasons. I will encourage Scouts and adult leaders to do likewise. I respect the Scout program and will support all of the Methods because of what I have witnessed as a result of actually doing them.

 

FB

 

[Hunt]

I think it's important to distinguish between two things (1) the IDEA of a uniform and (2) the PARTICULAR uniform we now have.

While the very idea of wearing a uniform may be a hindrance for some people, I agree that it's one of the methods of Scouting, has many advantages, etc, etc, etc. On the other hand, if the CURRENT uniform is a hindrance because of the way it looks or fits, of the way it is useless in the field, and how much it costs, then it seems to me that something can and should be done about it.

[Eagledad]

>>On the other hand, if the CURRENT uniform is a hindrance because of the way it looks or fits, of the way it is useless in the field, and how much it costs, then it seems to me that something can and should be done about it.

[NIscouter]

We just have had one of our problem boys, recently on the edge of being asked to leave the troop by the committee, elected as a patrol leader. This boy has taken up the mantle of responsibility for a PL to be a good example of all aspects of scouting - including wearing the uniform with pride unlike in the past. He is now starting to understand that the patrol should be the basic frame of reference to interpete and understand Boy Scouts. I feel the positives derived from wearing the uniform far outweighs the negatives and gives all involved the sense of uniqueness not availible elsewhere.

 

A side (bottom?)comment - The "campfire leveling effect" noted by FB is dead on and thankfully lives in my troop. We are all equal sitting around the campfire!

[resqman]

My sister is a Girl Scout Leader. She explained the only official uniform anymore is basically a merit badge sash.

 

She felt that her girls needed a uniform to make them feel special about being Girl Scouts. She wanted a way for others to recognize that it was a Girl Scout troop visiting the museum or whatever event they were participating in.

 

She had a logo embroaderied on polo shirts. Now the girls have a shirt that matches. They can be recogonized as an organized group, not just a few friends.

 

The uniform is a symbol. It is so those who are in your organization can recognize you and your accomplishments by the various badges. It is also so that others can recognize you as belonging to a organization with a very positive public image.

 

You get treated differently by the way you appear. Dress in a business suit, and people will treat you with more respect than if you are wearing torn, dirty, smelly clothes that you slept in for the last 2 weeks.

 

I am a member of a rescue squad and we wear uniforms. People recognize our uniform and will allow us to pass through crowds or stand in the middle of the road simply because we are wearing uniforms. We often go to restaurants as a group. We always get nods of greeting and smiles. Occasionally we get a Thank you. If the same group of people were wearing jeans and mismatched shirts, we would be just another roudy group. We would have difficulty getting bystanders to allow us to help the injured. The uniform is a tool to allow us to perform our job.

 

While I was a boy I would not wear my uniform to a school function for fear of the ribbing I would get. But I did proudly wear my uniform during scout functions in public. The uniform is an important part of scouting and should be encouraged by adults wearing the uniform and requirements of wearing the uniform at scout functions. Our pack allows the boys to wear what they choose during campouts. But during flag ceremonies and Sunday religous ceremonies we require the uniform.

[nfcscouts]

I'm VERY new to this forum, and let me admit I mostly skimmed the answers before I started typing mine, but I am firmly of the opinion that the uniform is what MAKES the scout a SCOUT. Otherwise, as noted previously, a Pack of Cub Scouts or a Troop of Boy Scouts becomes yet another uncontrolled mob of boys.

 

We had the question come up recently amongst our Pack, particularly among Tiger Cub parents, because it was a "hassle" to get the boys to wear their uniforms. Another leader and I were discussing that particular comment just this morning, and we were of the opinion that maybe it IS a little much for a first-grader, but maybe not so much for Wolf, Bear or Webelos Scouts.

 

I can see the argument for starting early in getting the boys into the habit of wearing the uniform, but I think our Pack may be on the verge of making it optional for Tiger Cubs. I don't have a vote as my son is graduating to Boy Scouts this month.

 

My opinion, and that of the other leader I talked to, is that it's only a hindrance to those boys (and parents) whose enthusiasm for the program is cooling some. My "hardcore" Cub Scouts are in full uniform at every meeting, proudly showing off their badges and the activity patches covering their bragging vests. I believe seeing this pride in uniform inspires the younger boys to do the same, making it a self-sustaining reaction.

 

The Boy Scout Troop we are moving to requires the FULL uniform (including pants) at Troop Meetings, but does allow exceptions when a boy is coming straight from another activity (such as baseball or football) but still wants to participate with his Troop. I believe this strikes a fair balance between the scouting program and other activities.

 

Scott Armstrong

Pack 2, Suwannee River Area Council

http://nfcscouts.tripod.com

[lpotts_47]

There seems to be a couple of differing viewpoints here. First of all, I think it's great we can all weigh in on a Scouting topic...and I hope we all continue to do so. With that said...to those who have questions about the use of a uniform, I suggest you read those sections of the Scout handbook and the Scoutmasters handbook as well as various training materials you should have gotten as you earned your "Trained" strip. The use of a uniform in Scouting has a very solid psycological base. "Uniforms" are worn at all levels of our society...even the "grunge" look with the stocking cap pulled over the ears, the sloppy flannel shirt and the baggy pants are a carefully cultivated uniform for those wearing it.

The whole uniform should be worn and worn properly. At the last training course you attended, how many instructors wore just the shirt...or one without the proper patches.

There will always be those who, for whatever reason, will try to change standards (usually lowering them in an attempt to be more politically correct). To those I must say, don't try to re-invent the wheel. Get trained, understand the program and why it works and you will probably then realize that there are many things within the program that work well because they are right.

[lpotts_47]

There seems to be a couple of differing viewpoints here. First of all, I think it's great we can all weigh in on a Scouting topic...and I hope we all continue to do so. With that said...to those who have questions about the use of a uniform, I suggest you read those sections of the Scout handbook and the Scoutmasters handbook as well as various training materials you should have gotten as you earned your "Trained" strip. The use of a uniform in Scouting has a very solid psycological base. "Uniforms" are worn at all levels of our society...even the "grunge" look with the stocking cap pulled over the ears, the sloppy flannel shirt and the baggy pants are a carefully cultivated uniform for those wearing it.

The whole uniform should be worn and worn properly. At the last training course you attended, how many instructors wore just the shirt...or one without the proper patches.

There will always be those who, for whatever reason, will try to change standards (usually lowering them in an attempt to be more politically correct). To those I must say, don't try to re-invent the wheel. Get trained, understand the program and why it works and you will probably then realize that there are many things within the program that work well because they are right.

 

As for the youth dragging their heels about wearing a uniform...what good things in life doesn't a boy complain about from time to time? He just needs to get consistant re-enforcement about uniforming from a uniformed leader.

 

Larry Potts

Troop 683

[Vigil-Hiker]

I am currently at the cubscout level. At our back to school/recruitment night we tell the parents that the uniform is not required to be a scout, but recommend to at least get the shirt to have somewhere to put the patches on.

 

I tell the parents in my den that if money is an issue and their son wants full uniform, start with the shirt. Can always get the pants and hat later for birthday or holiday gifts or can have other family members get them as gifts for him. Shop ebay or ask if pack/troop has a uniform exchange program for those out-grown uniforms that are in good shape.

 

To keep cost down, buy short sleeve short big, so will grow into it. Can it over a basic long sleeve shirt in cooler weather. Saves sewing everything again on another shirt too.

 

Dickies navy colored khaki pants are very close in color and style as the uniform pants. For Pack meetings and public events we want the boys to wear their uniforms, den meetings depend on the planned activities (painting, wood-working not ideal for expensive uniforms).

 

Yes, durability has gone down. My new shirt I got last year when I joined to run my son's den had to have pocket restitched after 9 months. My old shirt from 15 years ago is in better shape, but is too small now (fit me in college and last couple years in high school, went on many hiking and camping trips in it).

 

I can understand not wanting to wear the necherchiefs, but they are not mandatory, I avoid mine 50% of the time and wear a bolo tie. It makes it easier to identify which level of cubs is which, and distinguish between scout troops when they wear the same neckerchief in each troop. If you want them to wear neckchiefs, have them make their own slides. If they are proud of their work on it, they will wear the neckerchief to show it off.

 

Back in the 70's, when I wore the shirt, I had to wear a neckerchief due to the open neck style of the shirts (cubs and boy scouts). So be glad of that shirt change, it sucks ironing the neckerchiefs.

 

And by the way, in high school, I too avoided my uniform for all but scouting events. During same time was even more involved in Scouting/OA, since we started doing more fun and going to interesting places, at sametime was involved in Winter and Spring Track (uniforms), marching band (uniforms), stage band (black pants and white shirts for "uniform" look), and concert band.

 

For the kids, I'd say it is not about wearing a uniform, but wearing a scout uniform around at non-scouting events. For the parents, it is the expense. After all, the schools, Pop Warner League, and Little League suppply uniforms for their teams. I myself live paycheck to paycheck, so I watch ebay during the spring/summer when the kids move on to boy scouts or for the out-grown cub scout ones to uniform my son.

[cubiemom]

I know from my sons point of view its not that he has to wear a uniform he doesnt mind, its the fact that nothing ever fits right and the pants are useless for anything other than den and pack meetings and a parade. They recently went on a field trip to a science center lots of running around and hands on stuff we ended up with 4 out of 15 boys with ripped knees. The pants dont hold up, and if you wear them camping even in the spring and summer you better bring your thermals to wear under them because they are not good for keeping you warm. I know most of the boys that I know that are into scouting dont mind the uniform but its how the uniform is (uncomfortable, useless for LOTS of different events) If they made the pants to be able to take the abuse the boys can dish out and make them comfortable I think most boys wouldnt mind them then. Most of the boys say why cant the uniform be fashioned after the military BDU's. Now af course there will be lots of people saying it should be this way or that way but cant we just make the COMFORTABLE, DURABLE, COST EFFICIENT, AND FIT.

[OldGreyEagle]

I guess I am a little confused, first of all one of the reasons the uniform is seen as a hinderance is because it is thought to be a little to "militaristic" and then a continuing theme seems to be the pants should be BDU's. Anybody tell me what the B in BDU stands for? (Battle Dress Uniform)

 

The field uniform is not adequate for camping, it is not designed for back country use and I am not sure we would want it that way. We have people all over the forum kicking about how expensive the uniform is and then we hear about having two separate uniforms, one for "dress" occasions such as COH, parades and other such things and then they want a "back country uniform" as well. So, I can see why the uniform section of the BSA would be confused.

 

The History Channel is running a series on American Icons, in the clip that introduces the shows is a troop of boy scouts carrying American Flags, obviously in a parade, why would we want to change an image that is identified with America?

[Torveaux]

OGE,

 

I think there are some that view the uniform that way, but I would venture to guess that the vast majority of complaints are not about the uniform as a uniform, but the cut, cost, and quality of the existing uniform.

 

What if we had National set basic guidelines like the color of the pants will be Blue #abc for Cub Scout pants and shorts and Green #xyz for Boy Scout pants and shirts. (or something to that effect). Every 10? years or so they have a competition among interested companies capable of producing the uniforms in quantity, to design and bid out for the Scout contract. Because the color will not change, Scouts would be free to continue to wear the 'old' pants as they wish. The new production would be of the cut, fabric and such that 'wins' the contract for the next 10 years. Given a competitive bidding process coupled with a quality expectation, we would get a better product, for a lower cost AND it would encourage, rather than discourage wearing the entire uniform.

 

On a side note, I frankly think the leadership should be wearing Dockers in either Olive or Navy (Scouts or Cubs) for most non-camp functions. Visually the look is better and it does not look less 'uniform' if we all wear readily available clothing.

 

 

[EagleInKY]

I'm a big supporter of the uniform, but I find it interesting that I can scan the room at a troop meeting and see about three shades of boy scout green. And these are all official pants. Plus, I've got a pair of the poly/wool trousers, and they are a different shade as well. It makes it difficult for me to argue against the "generic" olive dockers.

[FScouter]

"It makes it difficult for me to argue against the "generic" olive dockers."

 

If the objective was for the boys to all wear exactly the same color, you might have a point. But wearing the same color is not the objective. The objective is to wear the Boy Scout uniform.

 

"Son, you're not wearing your uniform."

 

"But I'm wearing dockers that are exactly the same color!"

 

"That's nice, but dockers is not the uniform."